Gun Dog Forum

Karen wrote:Hats off to the Spin Club of America for putting on their first field trial! Hoping there will be MANY MORE in their future! And hoping they don't allow the FT purests to change their breed, the way so many other breeds have.

Ditto...The FC or AFC doesn't affect any of us that trial other breeds. They are not going to breed to a GSP or Brittany so why worry about it or lament over the advancement of their breed. They still have to have Major wins. They still have to beat dogs to get points. Odds are they are going to have to compete in off breed trials to gain points if their trials are limited accross the country.

With no disrespect, I would rather see them close their trials to "Spinoni" only, before I would like to see other breeds getting titles at Spinone trials or Pointing Lab Trials! I'm sure that will be the next AKC title if it is not already in the works.

Good for them!

doco wrote:
With no disrespect, I would rather see them close their trials to "Spinoni" only, before I would like to see other breeds getting titles at Spinone trials or Pointing Lab Trials! I'm sure that will be the next AKC title if it is not already in the works.

Good for them!

Good point here.

doco wrote:

Karen wrote:Hats off to the Spin Club of America for putting on their first field trial! Hoping there will be MANY MORE in their future! And hoping they don't allow the FT purests to change their breed, the way so many other breeds have.

Ditto...The FC or AFC doesn't affect any of us that trial other breeds. They are not going to breed to a GSP or Brittany so why worry about it or lament over the advancement of their breed. They still have to have Major wins. They still have to beat dogs to get points. Odds are they are going to have to compete in off breed trials to gain points if their trials are limited accross the country.

With no disrespect, I would rather see them close their trials to "Spinoni" only, before I would like to see other breeds getting titles at Spinone trials or Pointing Lab Trials! I'm sure that will be the next AKC title if it is not already in the works.

Good for them!

Agreed! I have never understood why the different breeds don't have closed trials to further the standard of their own breed.

Karen wrote:

jcbuttry8 wrote:I have much more respect for a club that closes there trial for their own reasons then a club that runs an open all breed trial and then tells you that they are full and your pointer can't run. Then you show up at said trial and find they are only running six dogs in the said event. It happens, been there done that.

Joe

Joe, your stake may not have looked full, but with some clubs, adult stakes get priority over juvenile stakes. The clubs I belong to will only accept entries equal to 20 (or 22, I don't remember which) adult braces per day.

Thanks Karen. I know it's all entry related but this entry was a call in and I spoke live. It is alot harder to hide tone in a phone call than a letter or email. It was apparent what had happened.

Joe

Here's an example of a BS club that should be ashamed. This "full" trial according to the secretary - yet 5/8 of the stakes had odd numbers of dogs. Oh, and a big 70 dogs fills a weekend on 2 courses - YAH RIGHT.

http://www.remekvizslas.net/showTrialRe ... 4?id=63352


Look how full that is - any member of this club should be embarrassed. I know of 4 other people who were told it was full - GOOD OL BOY trial it seems.

That link shows dogs that STARTED, not those that were entered. All it takes is for a couple of bitches in season, or a handler (or a pro with 20+ dogs and scratches the whole string)that has a couple of dogs to scratch, after the drawing, and this can happen.

Ashamed? Really? They put on an event the end of December, with limited length of daylight.

Please list the club event that you personally have put on, or helped with.

bb560m wrote:Here's an example of a BS club that should be ashamed. This "full" trial according to the secretary - yet 5/8 of the stakes had odd numbers of dogs. Oh, and a big 70 dogs fills a weekend on 2 courses - YAH RIGHT.

http://www.remekvizslas.net/showTrialRe ... 4?id=63352


Look how full that is - any member of this club should be embarrassed. I know of 4 other people who were told it was full - GOOD OL BOY trial it seems.

Looks to me according to the result page this was a shorthair trial and not a brittanny trial
It also looks like it has A LOT of different breeds entered and not a breed specific trial.

I have heard too many claims of GSP trails being unofficially closed to not be concerned, but you cannot use the AKC results to prove the point. They show the number of starters, those that actually ran, not those entered and then scratched for whatever reason.

Also looking at the results there are no 3 point majors awarded(less than 13 dogs)--you need a couple 3 point majors to get a britt FC, so it is not really helping the adult dogs alot towards their FCs. It will help the younger dogs get their 2 points towards their FCs

bb560m wrote:Here's an example of a BS club that should be ashamed. This "full" trial according to the secretary - yet 5/8 of the stakes had odd numbers of dogs. Oh, and a big 70 dogs fills a weekend on 2 courses - YAH RIGHT.

http://www.remekvizslas.net/showTrialRe ... 4?id=63352


Look how full that is - any member of this club should be embarrassed. I know of 4 other people who were told it was full - GOOD OL BOY trial it seems.

My club has had trials where we've gone from 'OMG how are we going to get all these dogs run?' to 'OMG we'll be done on Saturday!' All it takes is for one pro to scratch to make the difference. Just last spring one guy sent 48 entries, and another sent 30-something. If they scratch after the drawing, there's no option but to run what ya have, no waiting list people or drummed up entries allowed.

* Sorry

nikegundog wrote:

bb560m wrote:Here's an example of a BS club that should be ashamed. This "full" trial according to the secretary - yet 5/8 of the stakes had odd numbers of dogs. Oh, and a big 70 dogs fills a weekend on 2 courses - YAH RIGHT.

http://www.remekvizslas.net/showTrialRe ... 4?id=63352


Look how full that is - any member of this club should be embarrassed. I know of 4 other people who were told it was full - GOOD OL BOY trial it seems.

Interesting results, is this fairly typical in pointing trials, a few guys taking about every award?

Amateur Walking Puppy
J A West T Burdin

Open Puppy
D Medford W Garrett

Amateur Walking Derby
T Burdin W Garrett

Open Derby
J Demarco R Albin

Amateur Gun Dog
J A West T Burdin

Amateur Limited Gun Dog Walk-Ret
T Burdin W Garrett

Open Gun Dog Walk-Ret
J Demarco R Albin

Open Limited Gun Dog
D Medford J Demarco

Nike that is the listing of Judges for each stake.

Those were the judges.

ACooper wrote:
Nike that is the listing of Judges for each stake.

Sorry, dumb retriever guy, it was to late to delete it after I asked.

Nike
I went on line last year asking who the RU
was at the Nationals at Ames last year...they don't name one.

And I got the the plural for 'spinone' wrong!

I still don't understand the comparison of this trial to Brit trials, "closed" trials or "good ol boy trials". This is their annual "celebration" where people gather to see what is out there in the breed that they have chosen. It shouldn't matter to anyone what that breed is, it's a gun dog and this is a forum about gun dogs. I'm not a Spinone person, I'm a dog person. I have 1 Vizsla, 1 GSP, atleast 4 more V's on the way and a Lab. I don't expect my lab to participate at the Vizsla Nats. Just like I don't expect my V's to participate at the GSP Nats. The guys at Gundog Supply need to sell crying towels!

Wyndancer wrote:That link shows dogs that STARTED, not those that were entered. All it takes is for a couple of bitches in season, or a handler (or a pro with 20+ dogs and scratches the whole string)that has a couple of dogs to scratch, after the drawing, and this can happen.

Ashamed? Really? They put on an event the end of December, with limited length of daylight.

Please list the club event that you personally have put on, or helped with.

I help out our club as much as I can and was on the FT committee - I also planted birds for 6 hrs - and all of this while my dog was at a trainer, not even competing. We did over 100 dogs in 2 days.

I've talked with someone that DID make it in the trial, on the running order nothing was sent out indicating a pro or a ton of other people scratched. Also, I specifically emailed the secretary saying they can put me on a waiting list and add me the last second right before the drawing if there is room (she did not respond to that email). Furthermore, there is now a total of 6 people that were told the same thing - trial full - so including me that is 7 of us! I spoke with someone who WAS at the trial and they finished mid afternoon both days. This club is notorious for this after talking to a few people and I wish there was a way for the AKC to audit their bull.

I don't want to get into this any longer, but there is a 0% chance this trial got full a week after it opened (when I emailed entries).

All you can do is NOT support their trials in the future. If they didn't want you there, you probably weren't gonna leave with a ribbon anyway, so they saved you travel & entry expenses that you can now use to support a club that DOES want your entry.

bb560m wrote:
I've talked with someone that DID make it in the trial, on the running order nothing was sent out indicating a pro or a ton of other people scratched. Also, I specifically emailed the secretary saying they can put me on a waiting list and add me the last second right before the drawing if there is room (she did not respond to that email). Furthermore, there is now a total of 6 people that were told the same thing - trial full - so including me that is 7 of us! I spoke with someone who WAS at the trial and they finished mid afternoon both days. This club is notorious for this after talking to a few people and I wish there was a way for the AKC to audit their bull.

I don't want to get into this any longer, but there is a 0% chance this trial got full a week after it opened (when I emailed entries).

So when it says "Number of Entries: 82 Number of Competitors: 73", Does that mean 9 scratches?
http://www.akc.org/events/search/index_ ... ed_breed=N

Karen wrote:All you can do is NOT support their trials in the future. If they didn't want you there, you probably weren't gonna leave with a ribbon anyway, so they saved you travel & entry expenses that you can now use to support a club that DOES want your entry.

That is the plan going forward. It will only hurt them in the long run.

nikegundog wrote:

bb560m wrote:
I've talked with someone that DID make it in the trial, on the running order nothing was sent out indicating a pro or a ton of other people scratched. Also, I specifically emailed the secretary saying they can put me on a waiting list and add me the last second right before the drawing if there is room (she did not respond to that email). Furthermore, there is now a total of 6 people that were told the same thing - trial full - so including me that is 7 of us! I spoke with someone who WAS at the trial and they finished mid afternoon both days. This club is notorious for this after talking to a few people and I wish there was a way for the AKC to audit their bull.

I don't want to get into this any longer, but there is a 0% chance this trial got full a week after it opened (when I emailed entries).

So when it says "Number of Entries: 82 Number of Competitors: 73", Does that mean 9 scratches?
http://www.akc.org/events/search/index_ ... ed_breed=N

Even if it was 82 and 9 scratched... that is still EXTREMELY small for a 2 day, 2 course trial. If you can't run 125 dogs on 2 courses they are doing it wrong.

BY THE WAY - new count - now 8 people were told it was full. LOL - yah right.

V-John wrote:

jimbo&rooster wrote:Ive read through this thread and several others discussing these breed trials....

Here is how I see it. There are a million athletes out there, but only some of them choose to play basketball. However basketball takes a specific set of skills, but ALL basketball players are essentially evaluted on the same field (within reason). Shouldnt a field trial be a field trial? My assumption is that if you choose to COMPETE in a trial you are making that decision, based on the confidence that you feel your dog is good enough to compete with ALL comers. I will put my dogs on the ground against anyone (not saying Ill win, but I WILL try) and Im sure most here feel the same way. If a specific breed is not capable of being competitive in an all breed FT maybe the owners should play another game, or choose a more suitable breed for the game they like.

I dont feel that a dog who has gained an FC or AFC in closed trials has really proven much.....

Jim

Um, no, basketball players are evaluated differently. Centers/big men are evaluated on different skills then say a guard is.
Dwight Howard isn't known for his ability to handle the ball or shoot threes or find the open shooter. But Steve Nash isn't evaluated per se, on his ability to block shots, shoot from the paint, etc,etc. that Howard is. Both are attempting to find an end result of winning, but both do it differently.

Dogs, same thing. Pointers are held to a different standard that some other breeds are.

Either way, good for the Spin Club for attempting to set a standard for their own breed.

Would it make folks happier if those in breed groups with championship titles that are breed specific were somehow designated as such?

My point is not that all basket ball players are the same. My point was that some folks are basket ball players and some folks are golfers. And even though basket ball players have a different job, they a judged on the same field of play. People choose to play the games they want in life based on thier skill set we should do the same with our dogs.

Chuckar12. I apologize for the people sport/dog sport analogy ...... it will never happen again

JIm

nikegundog wrote:So when it says "Number of Entries: 82 Number of Competitors: 73", Does that mean 9 scratches?

Yes, I believe it means that at least 9 people paid entries that did not start. So 82 entries meant that they were planning on 41 braces and if you give each 40 minutes that is 1640 minutes of field trial divided by 60 is 27.33 hours of running time. With two courses some braces will run congruently, though some grounds will only have room for Juvenile and or broke dog stakes...but assuming they had full use of two courses it would mean that the original plan at full was nearly 7 hours of run time per day per course, without taking into account lunches and or judges running dogs in stakes other than the one they were judging causing delays...

Scheduling a trial is really a lot of fun...this was December not much daylight, got to have time to plant birds, find lost dogs, very little here to be judgmental about without knowing the whole story.

jimbo&rooster wrote:Chuckar12. I apologize for the people sport/dog sport analogy ...... it will never happen again

JIm

I am going to let this go...but i don't want to hear a word comparing the Harbaugh's and the Tracy clan....

Chukar12 wrote:

nikegundog wrote:So when it says "Number of Entries: 82 Number of Competitors: 73", Does that mean 9 scratches?

Yes, I believe it means that at least 9 people paid entries that did not start. So 82 entries meant that they were planning on 41 braces and if you give each 40 minutes that is 1640 minutes of field trial divided by 60 is 27.33 hours of running time. With two courses some braces will run congruently, though some grounds will only have room for Juvenile and or broke dog stakes...but assuming they had full use of two courses it would mean that the original plan at full was nearly 7 hours of run time per day per course, without taking into account lunches and or judges running dogs in stakes other than the one they were judging causing delays...

Scheduling a trial is really a lot of fun...this was December not much daylight, got to have time to plant birds, find lost dogs, very little here to be judgmental about without knowing the whole story.

Half of their stakes were puppy/derby.... those are 25 mins max...

I am sure they could have done another half dozen braces, if they wanted to...but the point is they don't have to. What have you gained by your public proclamation of the arguable ineptitude, crony-ism or conspiracy? I can assure you that you aren't gaining what you thought you might...if indeed you were thinking ahead.

Chukar12 wrote:I am sure they could have done another half dozen braces, if they wanted to...but the point is they don't have to. What have you gained by your public proclamation of the arguable ineptitude, crony-ism or conspiracy? I can assure you that you aren't gaining what you thought you might...if indeed you were thinking ahead.

Well we are now up to 9 people who were told it was full. So confirming that.

bb560m wrote:Here's an example of a BS club that should be ashamed. This "full" trial according to the secretary - yet 5/8 of the stakes had odd numbers of dogs. Oh, and a big 70 dogs fills a weekend on 2 courses - YAH RIGHT.

http://www.remekvizslas.net/showTrialRe ... 4?id=63352


Look how full that is - any member of this club should be embarrassed. I know of 4 other people who were told it was full - GOOD OL BOY trial it seems.

I know quite a few people from that club. Great people. You should at least meet someone before you trash their reputation.

Not sure how long you've been trialing, but you need to grow thicker skin.

I went to that trial in 11 and it was one course for what it's worth. Let's not forget the time it takes for call backs too.

Doug

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:

bb560m wrote:Here's an example of a BS club that should be ashamed. This "full" trial according to the secretary - yet 5/8 of the stakes had odd numbers of dogs. Oh, and a big 70 dogs fills a weekend on 2 courses - YAH RIGHT.

http://www.remekvizslas.net/showTrialRe ... 4?id=63352


Look how full that is - any member of this club should be embarrassed. I know of 4 other people who were told it was full - GOOD OL BOY trial it seems.

I know quite a few people from that club. Great people. You should at least meet someone before you trash their reputation.

Not sure how long you've been trialing, but you need to grow thicker skin.

I went to that trial in 11 and it was one course for what it's worth. Let's not forget the time it takes for call backs too.

Doug

Well I have PMs and a few firsthand stories stating otherwise. Also, their secretary doesn't respond to emails for waiting lists. I have some other info that is private that does not make this club look any better. I do have thick skin - I can care less if they do it - so what I don't get to run that weekend. Doesn't ruin my weekend - I'll just train. Just think they might want to look at their practices. I won't be sending in entries for them again - they don't want my money, so they won't get it.

Let me add this thought,there are a ton of very nice wirehairs,short-hairs,visilas,ect that run trials who never receive there fc because they run in competitive trials,that have outstanding quality dogs running in them. The fact is earning a fc on a dog is a great achievement because of the dogs you have to beat to get the win.It is a game of competition plain and simple.
So what you guys are saying is,it is alright that a very small breed numbers like a sp,is acceptable to win his fc in breed only stakes,while a nice wirehair can have 15 placements but never get the one major win,due to the level of competition the fuzzy dog runs in.
Does that seem fair? that one dog can run in a breed that has few individuals who can put on a trial performance while another has to compete with dogs who win and place in 50 dog stakes?
I guess I always looked up to the fc, as a goal that took a stylish,hard running dog who I would love to walk behind anytime.One of the main reasons I left standard events was my dogs were getting the same titles as dogs I would not ever take hunting with.
Now I see even the akc fc is getting watered down.I guess time to start running af shooting dog events. :roll:

larue wrote:I guess I always looked up to the fc, as a goal that took a stylish,hard running dog who I would love to walk behind anytime.

Agreed! There are no breed standards for FT and if a spinone/vizlsa/pointer whatever it is does not run hard, find birds, clean bird work, I wouldn't place it. If the spinone standard says a dog that jogs, well, they probably wouldn't want me as a judge bc I'd withhold. FTs are not about judging a dog to their breed standard or what i typical of the breed. If you want an FC and the breed you are interested in can only jog and not run hard, then maybe they weren't meant to have FCs. I want a hard running, stylish dog, regardless of the breed.

Closed breed trials are good. Lets everyone compares apples and apples. If you asked the spinone to compete in open breed trials, next topic we would be lemon / orange and white spinones with slick coats because some ars-clown wanted to keep up with the Additions Go Boy looking shorthairs. I saw a trial recently that excluded one breed, that is stupid in my opinion.

In reference to the specific club in question, my money will support trials that I think offer a level playing feel. I see no advantage to publicly bashing that club, but like Momma said- its

I have little problem with a closed breed trial, I wouldn't want my wins at them though to be honest. And regardless if it is open or closed, the first place performance should be worthy of a blue, not some lower standard.

a versatile champion,and a master hunter so a well trained dog who has accomplished much in its life,but field trial style?

bb560m, you can make that number 10 with me and i know 3 others that were told trial was full.They could have had 4 majors in broke dog stakes.I was trying to run in 3 of the broke stakes. I was a little upset, as were alot of people needing a major that ran up there. Not a lot of happy peopleboth who ran and who didn't.

vols fan wrote:bb560m, you can make that number 10 with me and i know 3 others that were told trial was full.They could have had 4 majors in broke dog stakes.I was trying to run in 3 of the broke stakes. I was a little upset, as were alot of people needing a major that ran up there. Not a lot of happy peopleboth who ran and who didn't.

Did you end up running in the non majors still? Was there plenty of time to make them majors?

larue wrote:

a versatile champion,and a master hunter so a well trained dog who has accomplished much in its life,but field trial style?

If we were only judging style, we would call it a beauty contest.

Through field trials the hope would be they could evaluates their stock and 'improve' the breed by selecting and breeding the individuals that exhibit the qualities that are desired by everyone- independence, application, gait, grit, heart, bird sense, etc.

Karen wrote:All you can do is NOT support their trials in the future. If they didn't want you there, you probably weren't gonna leave with a ribbon anyway, so they saved you travel & entry expenses that you can now use to support a club that DOES want your entry.

Karen,

I am not sure that is always true, it is hard to get a judge in your pocket (not that I have ever tried), nearly all will put up the best dog. In all the trials I have judged, I have never had anyone from the parent club even suggest how I judge. Were they to, I would load up and leave.

But I think this should be reported to AKC, a club must specify in the premium if they will close entries when they have all they can run in avaliable daylight hours or a set number per stake. I don't know what happened, nor does anyone here, but it should be investigated. Please report it, on behalf of all of us. PLEASE.

Chukar12, Scoop in some circles...and a crackerjack investigator...

http://www.gspcmtn.org/Premiums/GSPCMTN-1112FT-PL.pdf

Two days...single course according to the premium and 41 braces expected...that is full even with the juvenile stakes. I don't know any of these people and really could not care less...but I hate seeing the wrong perception and approach in a volunteer sport that is not going to survive on fortune and glory

They added a 2nd course here are both the running orders.

I did not run, it was full....Was trying to find the running order but i think broke dog stakes had 10,11,12and 12 in theirs. With two courses should have been easy to make them majors. Its one of the closes trials to me so i would like to support it.

Chukar12 wrote:Chukar12, Scoop in some circles...and a crackerjack investigator...

http://www.gspcmtn.org/Premiums/GSPCMTN-1112FT-PL.pdf

Two days...single course according to the premium and 41 braces expected...that is full even with the juvenile stakes. I don't know any of these people and really could not care less...but I hate seeing the wrong perception and approach in a volunteer sport that is not going to survive on fortune and glory

Wrong trial...see attached. Two courses.

Might I ask those of you that have decided your standard is the only one that counts, how did you get in that position? Why is a standard, that a few guys who wanted something to do with their dogs, be the standard for everyone? Seems this is another case where trials have become the goal rather than just a game we play with our hunting dogs. And yet those same people will tell you that they are just trying to find the best hunting dog.

There are still many of us left that think each breed was developed to do certain things and do them well. And we sure don't need or want all breeds to do the same thing the same way. Just makes no sense. The best pointer in the world shouldn't place in a Spin trial even though it is a great pointer. And the same with a Spin in a pointer trial.

Ezzy

Yeah...I don't know the details only the math and what's in front of us...
Seems like there are enough folks critical of what these folks have done to get another trial going, but...that's a lot of work, accountability, maturity, and probably other ity's that are slipping my mind.

Adam , i think it was the Dec29 trial in question

Chukar...41 braces...82 dogs at the end of December? We hold a FT at Solon Springs the end of Sept, first part October, we have trouble running over 76 in two days, single course, no call backs.

Adam. That running order does not state if the courses are being run concurrently or not. If not concurrent, then the timing is the same as a single course. We run our puppies on a separate course, Course B, but it's not concurrent. It's a far better course for puppies than what we use for the others.

They ran 2 courses at both trials and were "filled" at both trials... I dont believe there were "bye" braces at the walking trial though I have that running order as well.

Lets do some simple math

On the open course (i'll use 30 minutes for every brace even though there were 6 puppy braces and 5 derby braces). 23 braces over 2 days. That's 5.75 hours of time on the ground per day. Throw in an hour each day for call backs and 30 minutes for lunch and that is 7 hours and 15 minutes per day. If you started at 7:30AM you would be done at 2:45.

On the amateur course. 20 total braces. 5 hours per day, one hour for call backs and 30 minutes for lunch. You start at 7:30, you are done by 2:00.

I put on a trial in SC, 2 weeks earlier. I have a real good understanding of available daylight.

Dec 29, 2012 6:58 AM 4:41 PM 9h 43m 45s
Dec 30, 2012 6:58 AM 4:42 PM 9h 44m 14s

Sunrise and sunset times for Nashville