Who is the best GSP ever??????

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:00 pm

Hey BIRD, Looks like you have just about ran out of something to say on this thread. I think it would be a good idea to go ahead and LOCK this one down. :roll: :roll: :roll: Sonny

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:09 pm

Stone, I was not trialing while Billy was still alive, what did you like about him and where did you see him run??

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:04 pm

The numbers here are a little exaggerated. Rusty's 60+ FC's were the result of 29 breedings, according to the AKC Progeny report. I saw Clown's report at one point, although I do not still have it. That also showed breedings in the low 30's. Of course, those are only the breedings that produced dogs with a title of some kind, so there were undoubtedly more breedings than that. But breedings in the 100's I doubt.

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:07 pm

Hey Bird, Your last post on this thread maybe should have gone in the BRAGG section.

Sonny

gunner · Post by **gunner** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:42 pm

Perhaps of interest in regards to some of the postings on this thread on the origination of the standard of judging at the National Bird Dog Championship, know as the Amesian Standard.

From Fields of Glory, Vol I, 1874-1930 Everett M. Skehan
By the time of his death in 1945, Hobart Ames would have judged more Nationals than any other person. So in order to put things into perspective and maintain continuity of Ames's stringent standards, the American Field would commission outdoor writer Clarke Venable to prepare a standard for the trial based upon Ames's preferences. Few would ever know exactly what qualities Ames looked for as the epitome of a National Champion, since he would rarely discuss the subject except among close associates and friends in private settings. Venable would consult with several experts, who had shared discussions of dogs with Ames in the lilbrary of his Grand Junction, TN, plantation mansion. Some had run their dogs under Ames, and others, such as Cecil Proctor, Reuben Scott, Dr. T, Benton King and Nash Buckingham had judged with him. Based upon their observations, Venable would compose the following:

The dog under consideration must have and display great bird sense.

He must show perfect work on both coveys and singles.

He must quickly determine between foot and body scent.

He must use his brain eyes and nose to the fullest advantage and hunt the likely places on the course.

He must posses speed, range, style, character, courage and stamina, and good manners, always.

He must hunt the birds and not the handler hunt the dog. No line or path runner is acceptable.

He must be well broken, and the better his manners the more clearly he proves his sound training.

Should he loose a little in class, as expressed in extreme speed and range he can make up for this, under fair judgment, in a single piece of superior bird work, or in sustained demonstration of general behavior.

He must be bold, snappy and spirited. His range must be to the front or to either side, but never behind.

He must be regularly and habitually pleasingly
governable (tractable) and must keep uppermost in his mind the finding and pointing of birds for his handler.

....ps I believe this standard to be a pretty good standard for any good bird dog, field trial performer or gundog. Bill

gunner · Post by **gunner** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:50 pm

I'm kinda curious about endurance Championships for restricted breeds.
I know in open dog stakes there are the 3 hour or longer stakes such as the National Championship, The National Free-For-All and the Southern Championship.
What are considered endurance championships for restricted breeds?

Bill

Don · Post by **Don** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:59 pm

It seems to me that I read somewhere that there were three authors of the standard. I forget the names for sure but think it was W.W. Titus, Cecil Proctor and Hobart Ames or perhaps T. Benton King. I'll look around and see if I can find it.

Reguardless of who wrote it, it is a great standard. The only one I've seen that I thought was worth a darn.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:24 pm

Bill,

On the GSP side, we have no endurance stakes. We don't have enough folks interested in that kind of stuff to support those kind of stakes.

Our AF trials are run during the week, often between AKC stakes on the weekends. Or, the Amateur will run on the weekend, the open stakes during the week and then the pros pull out and haul a** to the next weekend AKC trial.

As a breed, we are a bit "over extended" when it comes to species and region championships. We have a very weak "circuit" and some of our chanpionships are, and may have never been, financially viable were it not for organizers willing to cover the losses. We are comfortable running species championships on wild birds, even when held in states where there are wild birds to run on.

I guess the closest thing we've got to "endurance" trials is that fact that a dog might get run 4 times in 10 days; a 30 minute limited gundog stake on the weekend, a 60 minute Open Shooting Dog and 60 minute Amateur Shooting Dog and another 30 minute limited gundog stake the following weekend.

JMO,
Dave

Don Evanson · Post by **Don Evanson** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:16 pm

lvrgsp wrote:Ted, As much as I hate to say it, I would go to say that somewhere someone has a pure pointer blood dna as a shorthair litter.

Chip

Not possible ! now with all the dna there no dout that theres extra pointer blood in some of the hall of fame breeds it shows in the head ears chest but in my opinion it made a more aggressive bird dog not a fur dog' i love looking at the navdha dogs been around some nice ones and i have been around alot that wouldnt take there nose of the ground for nothing but a snack.. It sure helped the Quarter Horse adding the Thoroughbred to the line.. The Germans new what they were doing so they added a little more English pointer to the breed ! we brought the breed over started compeating snuck some more into the gsp and that made the GSP one of the best all round dogs in my book..Each to there own navhda akc field or shoot to retreive.. I just want a stylish wild bird hunting machine theres no politics out on the free range or along the washouts and ditches just a time limit daylight to dark with friends or you and your dog and or in my case dogs no expectations just companions out enjoying mother nature !

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:25 pm

It's not too far fetched to say Dixieland's Rusty, Uodibar's Boss Man and Rawhide's Clown. Rusty as probably everyone knows produced more FC offspring than any other dog followed by #2 FC producer Boss Man. But there is not definitive way to say this (one specific dog) is the greatest. Tell me, does anyone know if Clown passed Boss Man as #2 producer??

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:41 pm

Ahumphers91a wrote:It's not too far fetched to say Dixieland's Rusty, Uodibar's Boss Man and Rawhide's Clown. Rusty as probably everyone knows produced more FC offspring than any other dog followed by #2 FC producer Boss Man. But there is not definitive way to say this (one specific dog) is the greatest. Tell me, does anyone know if Clown passed Boss Man as #2 producer??

Spend the $25 each and find out. Clown could still produce. There is one person, at least, with straws on him.

None of the three would get my vote. Popular sire syndrome is not grounds for greatness on its own.

But, four years and someone resurrects this? Really?

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:44 pm

Well, guess what, RESULTS are what get my vote! Since results are logged and kept, they get mine

But then again, that's why this thread was started was just for opinion.

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:10 pm

Don wrote:Perhaps the question should be, "which GSP had the most impact on the modern American GSP. In which case I haven't a clue but three come to mind. Tell, Moesguaards Dandy and Dixielands Rusty.

If we go back that far we have to say Fieldacres IB, yes Tell, Moesgaards IB (sire of Dandy and many many other FC's) Rusty yes, Tip Top Timmy...... it goes on. You are right with, "which had the most impact" and we can't forget the only shorthair to be inducted into the Hall of Fame with NO title's, Esser's Chick!

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:43 pm

I'd go with any of these. The prefix and get says it all.

2x NFC/FC/AFC BMK'S WILD CHILD
NC/FC/ BMK'S STRIKE THE GOLD ,
5x NC/NSDC/NASDC/FC HEIDE'S MIGHTY CITY SLICKER,
NC/FC/NASDC/AFC BLUEMAX SPITFIRE,
NSDC/FC HEIDE HO PINEHURST

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:49 pm

And the foundation for pinehurst adn bluemax come from Moesgaards IB through Fieldacres IB. Also there is Blick Von Shinback in there who is a son of Esser's Chick. All of who were mentioned above, The lines from them, Including INT Ch. Adam in there, Sire of Ruth Johns Betti. Pinehurst is from GREAT LINES. The female i'm getting from Ken Levy is stacked with Pinehurst, and Rusty Lines.

Here's Pinehurst ped: http://nextgenerationgermanshorthairs.n ... erations=5
Bluemax Ped: http://nextgenerationgermanshorthairs.n ... erations=5

Don Evanson · Post by **Don Evanson** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:16 pm

bondoron wrote:
bird wrote:I look at it like this.

If I wanted a dog that would track blood, then I would get a bloodhound.
If I wanted a dog to track coon, then I would get a coonhound.
If I wanted a dog to chase and corner boar, then I would get a pitbull or something similiar.
If I wanted a dog to track and chase coyotes or fox, then I would get a foxhound or greyhound.
If I wanted a dog to track and chase rabbits, then I would get a beagle.
If I wanted a dog to hunt waterfowl, then I would look at possibly a Lab.
If I wanted a dog to hunt 300, 500 yards or more out in front of me, then I would get a English Pointer.
I choose to hunt pheasant, quail and sometime huns. I want a dog not to be distracted by twitty birds, rabbits, coons, skunks, yotes or deer. I want a dog that is going to sweep a field in search of "upland" birds with the intelligence to stay close enough where I can "enjoy" watching him/her do so with little direction from me. Coming to a rock solid point on a dime knowing that with your approach that a bird is going to come busting up out of the cover in flight. And then when the day is done and we return home. He/She is content to sit by my side and lay on the couch with me watching a football game or a race on TV. I want an American Bred German Shorthair. Nothing more - Nothing less.

bird
A DK can be broke off fur if it is wanted. It is apparent that the DK will always have myths associated to it. :roll:

I agree I want a dog tooned in on upland birds they need to change some of the standards and face the facts the Amercan Breed GSP well outfoot and get to the birds faster then the European GSP's however i have a female that has half of her pedigree loaded with KS title dogs, looking at 3 dogs to breed her to loaded with Unibars Koonas and Dunfur Morticia all titled dogs out of the Dunfur Kennels.. Unibar Koonas is one of the stronger american lines in my female's pedigree with more Dixieland I'm looking forward to it gunna make some fine medium range foot hunters

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:32 pm

Just a thought, You can always tune a dog to not run big... but can't teach a dog to run bigger. Yes, Uodibar's Koonas was a great dog from Rusty and Boss Man Lines.

Koonas Pedigree: http://nextgenerationgermanshorthairs.n ... erations=5

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:23 pm

Ahumphers91a wrote:
Don wrote:Perhaps the question should be, "which GSP had the most impact on the modern American GSP. In which case I haven't a clue but three come to mind. Tell, Moesguaards Dandy and Dixielands Rusty.
If we go back that far we have to say Fieldacres IB, yes Tell, Moesgaards IB (sire of Dandy and many many other FC's) Rusty yes, Tip Top Timmy...... it goes on. You are right with, "which had the most impact" and we can't forget the only shorthair to be inducted into the Hall of Fame with NO title's, Esser's Chick!

Sure about that?

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:27 pm

That I know of, what's the other(s)

EDIT: found a couple actually: Ceres of Hidden Hollow, Quailrun’s Roxy Roller, Oxton Minado’s Inge v Greif, Gretchenhof Tallyho, Bob V Schwarenberg, Mars V Ammertal, Arta V Hohreusch.

I would say the most known out of these were: Esser's Chick, Quailrun’s Roxy Roller, Schwarenberg, Mars V Ammertal, Arta V Hohreusch. These are very popular dog's, but very far back besides Quailrun's and Chick.

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:45 pm

I would still suggest that out of those inducted without titles, Chick was one: most well known, and two: produced more dog's that affected the breed in a better way than the rest. Just my opinion.

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:18 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
Ahumphers91a wrote:
Don wrote:Perhaps the question should be, "which GSP had the most impact on the modern American GSP. In which case I haven't a clue but three come to mind. Tell, Moesguaards Dandy and Dixielands Rusty.
If we go back that far we have to say Fieldacres IB, yes Tell, Moesgaards IB (sire of Dandy and many many other FC's) Rusty yes, Tip Top Timmy...... it goes on. You are right with, "which had the most impact" and we can't forget the only shorthair to be inducted into the Hall of Fame with NO title's, Esser's Chick!

Sure about that?

+1

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:46 pm

To stir the pot here lets try this.

Most people think AF is harder to win than AKC, I didnt hear KJ's Hightailing Saddle brought up when production records came into the thread Isnt he the leading sire in AF for GSP's????

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:50 pm

northern cajun wrote:To stir the pot here lets try this.

Most people think AF is harder to win than AKC, I didnt hear KJ's Hightailing Saddle brought up when production records came into the thread Isnt he the leading sire in AF for GSP's????

NGSPA or real American Field?

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:57 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
northern cajun wrote:To stir the pot here lets try this.

Most people think AF is harder to win than AKC, I didnt hear KJ's Hightailing Saddle brought up when production records came into the thread Isnt he the leading sire in AF for GSP's????
NGSPA or real American Field?

OK Casey why dont you take them one at a time.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:02 pm

northern cajun wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
northern cajun wrote:To stir the pot here lets try this.

Most people think AF is harder to win than AKC, I didnt hear KJ's Hightailing Saddle brought up when production records came into the thread Isnt he the leading sire in AF for GSP's????
NGSPA or real American Field?

OK Casey why dont you take them one at a time.

I'd be interested in what is running or has run successfully in all breed American Field. I've seen what my dogs can do in longtail games, but it's only one bloodline.

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:24 pm

But that is only an opinion based on other peoples theory's. Who really knows what is harder, AF, AKC, NSTRA, NAHVDA etc. Granted I have never run any trials as of yet, but who is to say whats harder. That's why it's an open suggestion from everyone on which dog was "THE BEST." I think a dog that has produced many champions (DC, FC, AFC, NFC, etc) have proven what they are about. And dog's that have won these trials obviously have made a huge accomplishment, but who's to set a guideline on what's "THE BEST."

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:18 am

Nothing like opening a 4-years-dead can o' worms.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:51 am

Cajun Casey wrote:I'd be interested in what is running or has run successfully in all breed American Field. I've seen what my dogs can do in longtail games, but it's only one bloodline.

What can your dogs do in the "longtail games"? Just wondering.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:06 am

ElhewPointer wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:I'd be interested in what is running or has run successfully in all breed American Field. I've seen what my dogs can do in longtail games, but it's only one bloodline.
What can your dogs do in the "longtail games"? Just wondering.

My dogs are equal opportunity hounds - they tend to run short, run off, bust birds, eat birds, get beat, no matter which venue I put 'em in!!

I can tell you rough numbers from personal experience, my dogs have 2 Ch's/3RU Ch's/another handful of times were "right there" legitimately in the mix challenging for the win but didn't get the nod, in open breed AF trials in probably 40-50 attempts, probably 20 different venues - the balance of those runs were azz beatin's where we slunk back to the trailer in sheer embarrassment for the damage we had just rendered the stubtail world!!

(see the report on the Oregon SD Ch at Sunnyside in the Field this week!! Geeawwwd ahmighty that was a bad outing!!

) I haven't done a ton of NGSPA trials, not sure of the total attempts/placement ratio, but I can only think of two venues we've been to that the dogs haven't gotten a placement...not gonna speculate why we've got a much better win % in NGSPA since I know we've got a higher percentage of stinker runs and azz whoopin's there too!!

Maybe it's just me but I think they're all freakin' hard!! ("Why?!! Why does it have to be this hard!!??" I cried staring blankly into the skies above Sunnyside this spring after spending roughly $150/minute to run 3 dogs

)

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:24 am

I for one, appreciate the honesty and realistic comments of DG's post!!

Charlie

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:57 am

DG your post is great.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:01 am

ElhewPointer wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:I'd be interested in what is running or has run successfully in all breed American Field. I've seen what my dogs can do in longtail games, but it's only one bloodline.
What can your dogs do in the "longtail games"? Just wondering.

Nothing just speaks from the side she is sitting on.... about all topics on this board. Never seen a true pic of a dog besides the one on top of the bird in the avatar. Wonder if thats the "winner".

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:18 am

Ultracarry,

That was the point I was getting at. I've don't know who Cajun is or who the dogs are. Mr. Favor's dogs can get it done in any venue.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:26 am

You would think with dogs that win in every form of competition, owning multi dogs, having a business in the dog world, doing studies on wild bird populations and training dogs there would be something other then brown excrement emitting from the key board. Ummmmm prepare for posts to get deleted like always.

markj · Post by **markj** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:07 pm

I like dogs. all of them

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:16 pm

markj wrote:I like dogs. all of them

Pretty much agree, except for minature schnauzers.

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:22 pm

$150/minute to run 3 dogs

) DG Favor

Excellent post.. When you have that competitive spirit you just have to go to that next trial.

It is the only thing that gets me up at 5 a.m.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:29 pm

northern cajun wrote:To stir the pot here lets try this.

Most people think AF is harder to win than AKC, I didnt hear KJ's Hightailing Saddle brought up when production records came into the thread Isnt he the leading sire in AF for GSP's????

For what it's worth, for those interested. This is the American Field side of German shorthair trials.

http://www.ngspa.org/HOF-inductees/2007-Rusty.html

Max2 · Post by **Max2** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:17 am

Maximus Buzzboy

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:27 am

Max2 wrote:

Maximus Buzzboy

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:39 am

In order to be considered for Best GSP ever they should look like a GSP.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:58 am

volraider wrote:In order to be considered for Best GSP ever they should look like a GSP.

What does a GSP look like?

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:47 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
volraider wrote:In order to be considered for Best GSP ever they should look like a GSP.
What does a GSP look like?

Like This

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:00 am

And This

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:02 am

Some even look like this

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:16 am

Vision wrote:And This

Who is the first dog? Sly? Sorry, itty bitty screen issue.

chiendog · Post by **chiendog** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:28 am

Willy.

http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/201 ... aired.html

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:49 am

Cajun Casey wrote:
Vision wrote:And This
Who is the first dog? Sly? Sorry, itty bitty screen issue.

Yes it is Sly

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:23 am

Vision wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
Vision wrote:And This
Who is the first dog? Sly? Sorry, itty bitty screen issue.

Yes it is Sly

Thanks. I had a 2006 daughter of his out of Chelsea. Killed on the highway running deer, unfortunately. Have some of her pups.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:03 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
volraider wrote:In order to be considered for Best GSP ever they should look like a GSP.
What does a GSP look like?

Not like a pointer!

Couldn't resist.