English Pointer Genetics

petrey10 · Post by **petrey10** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:30 am

I have an EP and want to learn more about the genetics of the breed. By this I mean the who's who of the EP's these days. Who is winning? What breedings are producing the great dogs? I will be in the market for a female pup here in about a year so I need to start learning more now.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:07 am

If you have a year to research than I would recommend subscribing to the American Field. The publication will show you the winning dogs.

As far as popular studs, Ch. Rock Acre Blackhawk is producing very well and is very hot right now. I think that Ch. Strut (out of Blackhawk) will be a sought after stud moving forward. I have litters out of both and am very happy with what I see so far.

Ch. Shadow's Attitude and NC Attitude's High Finance are proven studs that throw fantastic pups. I have worked with a lot of pups out of both sires and have never seen the consistency that those two are producing. I am going to breed to both in the near future. Simply great prospects.

I also have a pup out of Ch. Westfalls Black Ice and a pup out of Ch. Elhew Sinbad. Both of those studs are getting more attention these days.

Then there are the pups that the general public doesn't have access to because the pups are not advertised. As an example I am picking up two direct RU Ch. Rail Dancer pups this afternoon. There are a few very select straws out there from Ch. Addition's Go Boy, Ch. Guardrail and Rail Dancer. Those pups are gone before they hit the ground and are very hard to come by.

If I could only pick ONE PUP, I would get a pup from NC Attitude's High Finance. I have worked with several litters of his get from different females and every single pup has been outstanding. Great noses, great style, strong pointing instinct and very biddable animals. That would be my best bet for a great hunting dog.

hoosier · Post by **hoosier** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:05 am

Yawallac

Are you seeing natural backing and/or retrieving from the Shadow's Attitude and Attitude's High Finance pups?

Any thoughts on Joe's Attitude?

I have had shorthairs for 16 years. Just bought my 1st EP last spring. I'm sold on EP's. My Shorthair days may be over.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:14 am

Are you seeing natural backing and/or retrieving from the Shadow's Attitude and Attitude's High Finance pups?

Yes both. The pups I have worked with out of both sires have natural retrieving instinct and backing instinct. As with most Pointers the retrieving instinct should be nurtured as a pup for the best long term results.

Any thoughts on Joe's Attitude?

Not familier with that dog. Did you mean Joe Shadow? He is a proven HOF producer and the sire to Shadow's Attitude.

midwestfisherman · Post by **midwestfisherman** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:15 am

A couple of other that you might want to look into.

CH Sugarknoll Buckshot

CH Beaver Meadow Benjamin

hoosier · Post by **hoosier** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:37 am

Joe's Attitude brother to Shadow's Attitude

http://www.pinehillkennels.com/dog.php? ... ID=1549465

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:48 am

I haven't seen any pup's out of Joe's Attitude but the breeding is the same as Cash so the pups probably carry the same outstanding traits. He sure looks good on his game in that pic! Also notice that he goes back to Elhew Phantom. There is something special about that dog and Phantom seems to show up in many of the dogs that I personally like ...including my Sarah dog.

I was braced against a CH. Sugerknoll Buckshot derby last spring that was very nice. The Benjamin dog has had a huge impact in the grouse woods but I haven't seen any pups from him down this way.

hoosier · Post by **hoosier** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:04 pm

Anyone have a pedigree for Ch. Beaver Meadow Benjamin?

hoosier · Post by **hoosier** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:40 pm

Anybody know anything about Run-n-Gun Kennel. Looks like really good lines. I like the look and pedigree of this dog.

http://www.run-n-gunkennel.com/dog.php?DogID=1

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:47 pm

Yawallac wrote:I haven't seen any pup's out of Joe's Attitude but the breeding is the same as Cash so the pups probably carry the same outstanding traits. He sure looks good on his game in that pic! Also notice that he goes back to Elhew Phantom. There is something special about that dog and Phantom seems to show up in many of the dogs that I personally like ...including my Sarah dog.

I was braced against a CH. Sugerknoll Buckshot derby last spring that was very nice. The Benjamin dog has had a huge impact in the grouse woods but I haven't seen any pups from him down this way.

Elhew Phantom was in my part of the country for most of his life before going to OK. What you say about him is true. IMO he was one of the best pointer stud dogs ever. He was heavily bred around here to bitches from every possible bloodline. Every pup he threw that was given a chance made a bird dog. The vast majority had style to burn and enough go for anyones game.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:11 pm

Anybody know anything about Run-n-Gun Kennel.

I spoke with Ronnie last week about one of my Strut pups. Interestingly, he and Honky Tonk Kennels just sold Ben (Attitude's High Finance) to Scott Turner here in SC. I was very happy about that because I intend to use Ben quite a bit.

The dog you linked to has too much color for my taste but I discovered that there is a market for dogs with color up north. It's hard to sell a dog with that much color below the Mason/Dixon line. Color doesn't bother me but not much market for it down here.

Highcotton,

Phantom just seems to show up where I least expect it. Yellow Rose has a direct Phantom son (Sarah's sire) and a direct Phantom daughter (different dam) that I have been begging them to breed. I will buy the whole litter if they do the breeding.

Mav&Lizzy · Post by **Mav&Lizzy** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:03 pm

Yawallac, I don't know much about the pointer lines at all but a buddy of mine just breed to Ch. Westfalls Black Ice. The pups are about 6 months old. He has kept a couple. These 2 pups that I hunted with the other day are the most impressive pups I've ever hunted around period. I'm a die hard Setter guy and I've hunted behind some good adult dogs of all breeds but never anything so good so young! Both dogs are pretty clean in color and both (especially the male pup) is one of the best looking things I've ever seen on point. His look while honoring other dogs is breathtaking. And I typically won't ever say that about a pointer but I've never been this impressed with such a young dog. Heck when they were only 3 to 4 months old and he still had several out of the litter I was impressed with the whole lot of them when we'd let them out in the yard to chase pigeons. At one point there were about 5 or 6 littermates pointing/honoring out in the back yard. I just can't say enough how impressed I was with this litter!!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:06 pm

Here is a pic of the Blackice pup that I am training. He is a very nice pup!

petrey10 · Post by **petrey10** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:27 pm

ok now another question... I do not hunt at all on horseback and never will probably so I will need an EP that is close to medium range working. Is this more genetic or is it more training? I mean do close working EP differ genetically from big ranging field trial dogs

petrey10 · Post by **petrey10** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:32 pm

I looked at my papers for my dog and he is out of ROckwood Babe and Bittersweet Prelude. I was wondering if there is any place that I could find so I could make the pedigree go back farther.

Mav&Lizzy · Post by **Mav&Lizzy** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:42 pm

petrey10 wrote:ok now another question... I do not hunt at all on horseback and never will probably so I will need an EP that is close to medium range working. Is this more genetic or is it more training? I mean do close working EP differ genetically from big ranging field trial dogs

You can always train a young dog to hunt closer. I don't know of any definate way to train a dog to hunt further away. I have foot hunted behind dogs that are horse back trialed. Some dogs are very capable of adapting their range to the hunt.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:31 pm

I agree with Mav.

Buy from the best proven trial stock and you improve your odds significantly of getting a fine hunting dog. Don't worry about range. I have put NAVHDA titles on Pointer pups directly from horseback breeding. With todays tecknology you can bring in any dog. I did it w/o ecollars so it's really just a matter of training and rapport. What you can't train is speed and desire to hunt.

bh99 · Post by **bh99** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:39 pm

Anyone ever heard of or know anything about Burchel's Dutchman?
Theirs a little info about him at the bottom this page
http://www.crosswindkennel.com/kennelcelebs.htm

MARKNE · Post by **MARKNE** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:22 pm

Yawallac,

I like the Phantom lines too.

What sons of Phantom would you recommend, or what do you think of these sires or at least how they're bred.

http://www.superiorpointers.com/siresbudd.html

http://www.pinehillkennels.com/dog.php? ... ID=1581525

Also any thoughts on Fibber McGee, when bred to elhew dams

hoosier · Post by **hoosier** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:57 pm

Markne

I really like that stud Pinehill has. The only concern I have with that dog is it's size. I have hunted with some larger EP's out of Pinehill kennel and they don't handle the heat real well. Although none of the dogs I hunted with have been from the sire we are talking about.

I don't think you can go wrong with Fibber Mcgee. I have a granddaughter from him and wouldn't mind breeding back to him in the future, but from what I understand he is getting up there in age.

MARKNE · Post by **MARKNE** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:27 pm

Hoosier,

Thanks for your reply.
Your pup is nicely bred.

I'm like you, on my first pointer, going to get a second one soon.

I have a chance to get a grandaughter of Fibber (sire is son of Fibber).
The dam is a littermate to my female. She's one heck of a birddog.

Love the pointers, probably the most affectionate dog I've ever had, and I've had Vizsla's and Setter's, she has a super want to please attitude.

But theirs so many nicely bred pointers out there, I espicially like the strike/kiwi bred dogs, I know that's gettting to be some old blood anymore! So I've looked at the McGoo,Seawolf, McQiure,Damascus,Phantom lines.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:55 pm

MARKNE,

I have been considering this dog, NBHA RU National Champion Ch. Stylish Elhew Phantam. He is an Elhew Phantom son and has been doing a lot of winning. I probably wouldn't breed Sarah to him because that would be too much Elhew for my taste. I like Elhew crosses. I didn't breed Sarah to Fibber for the same reason.

I prefer a dog that is VERY fancy, stylish with a lot of speed, a true Shooting Dog. Too much Elhew and you can get plodders IMO. But crossing Elhew with the right combination can produce some very nice dogs. Wehle knew it and his best dogs were all produced from crosses. Line breed for consistency and outcross for vigor.

I still say the best bet for a fantastic hunting dog would be a pup out of Shadow's Attitude or Attitude's High Finance. Both sires are producing incredible pups.

bh99,

I hadn't heard of that dog specifically, but his sire is a very well known producer of excellent Pointers. 25x Ch. Crow's Little Joe.

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:33 pm

If you go back in Crow's Little Joe's pedigree you run into Branscum's Nickel (out of a Texas Squire bitch) on one side and Pike Creek Mike.

oakcreek · Post by **oakcreek** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:11 am

I bred a direct daughter of Elhew Seahorse to RU NBHA National CH Stylish Elhew Phantam. THe pups have turned out great thus far. I will be able to tell you more next year. But most of the pups were scent pointing pigeons and quail at 8 weeks, and have only gotten better. All are naturally retrieving already, pointing everything and anything, have incredible noses, and are very personable. I believe these pups are going to have enough run for walking or possibly shooting dog stakes. Stylish Phantam is a bigger running elhew dog, and from what i have seen produces some like dogs. But they have enough bird sense and come back to make equally nice gundogs as field trial dogs.

I just sent two finance sons out of training. One of them would point birds from 40 yards away on a consistent basis. Both were extremely intense around birds, to intense starting pulling their tails hard. Both were extremely easy retrievers with soft mouths.

Personally I like fiddler/elhew crosses, as well as some others. Sir Lancelot has been producing some really classy gundogs (my avatar is a lancelot field trial pup) , Erins Southern Pride is proving himself as a tremendous producer, I have liked some of the Calico's Thrillogy stuff, and some of the miller stuff.

I also want to try the pike creek mike bred dog pike, he looks right on his birds, but haven't ever seen anything but a picture. Pike Creek Mike x Fiddler bred female

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:40 am

I know where a finished Lancelot male is for sale. He is a super classy solid white dog and is finished out on birds and ff. He is not steady to wing and shot. If anyone intersted pm me and i will get the information to you,

BarkRidge · Post by **BarkRidge** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:28 am

Yawallac wrote:
Anybody know anything about Run-n-Gun Kennel.
I spoke with Ronnie last week about one of my Strut pups. Interestingly, he and Honky Tonk Kennels just sold Ben (Attitude's High Finance) to Scott Turner here in SC. I was very happy about that because I intend to use Ben quite a bit.

Actually Ronnie Cohn and Stan Whitt co-owned Finance. Apparently Stan and Ronnie has a disagreement and Stan bought out Ronnie. Later Stan sold Finance.

Scott Miller, (Honky Tonk Kennels), never owned Finance, he just trained it.

Drifter Saver · Post by **Drifter Saver** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:35 am

My avatar picture is a 3 year old direct daughter of Shadow's Attitude. Her dam is a full sister to Burchell's Dutchman. I also have a 2 year old double-bred Crow's Little Joe male directly out of Dutchman (he resides down the road from me). I compete in NSTRA with both of these dogs. They are both very intense and honest dogs.

I recently bred my Shadow's Attitude female to my Drifter dog (he is a direct son of Honky Tonk Attitude and Ranger's Barshoe Angel). I kept two males for myself, but if someone was seriously interested, I would consider selling one of them.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:46 am

Actually Ronnie Cohn and Stan Whitt co-owned Finance. Apparently Stan and Ronnie has a disagreement and Stan bought out Ronnie. Later Stan sold Finance.

Scott Miller, (Honky Tonk Kennels), never owned Finance, he just trained it.

Actually it's Stan Wint (not Whitt) and Ronnie Conn (not Cohn), but who cares. I said Honky Tonk Kennels because I didn't want to get into disagreements, etc. online because it's none of my business. The reality is that Stan plays an integral part in the ongoing operation of Honky Tonk Kennels. That I know.

The bottom line is that Ben and Cash are producing some fantastic pups regardless of who actually owns the paper.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:45 am

I know where a finished Lancelot male is for sale. He is a super classy solid white dog and is finished out on birds and ff. He is not steady to wing and shot.

Highcotton,

This always confuses me. How is a "finished" dog not steady to wing and shot?

I bred a direct daughter of Elhew Seahorse to RU NBHA National CH Stylish Elhew Phantam. THe pups have turned out great thus far. I will be able to tell you more next year. But most of the pups were scent pointing pigeons and quail at 8 weeks, and have only gotten better. All are naturally retrieving already, pointing everything and anything, have incredible noses, and are very personable. I believe these pups are going to have enough run for walking or possibly shooting dog stakes. Stylish Phantam is a bigger running elhew dog, and from what i have seen produces some like dogs. But they have enough bird sense and come back to make equally nice gundogs as field trial dogs.

oakcreek,

I am anxious to see more pups out of Phantam. I'm sure that my reluctance to breed my Elhew female to an Elhew male is probably just me, but I definately want bigger running dogs. Sarah is not your typical Elhew running dog as Phantam is not. Maybe it's something I will try at some point. Certainly, if I keep hearing reports like yours I very well may. Please keep me posted on the progress of your pups. And if you could post some pics I'd love to see them.

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:04 am

Shadows Attitude pups here - I am training them - they are decent dogs.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:36 am

Here is a year old pup out of Cash and a littermate to my Avatar dog. She is already broke and running as a Derby. She is fast and fancy with a ton of style! I love this little girl!

hoosier · Post by **hoosier** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:42 am

Nice looking dog!

up-hunter · Post by **up-hunter** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:45 am

man those pointers are nice looking dogs. All this talk about how good they are at an early age is making me think that one of those pretty dogs is going to make a trip to grouse country when i'm ready for my next dog.

how do they handle the cold by the way?

Drifter Saver · Post by **Drifter Saver** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:57 am

Yaw,

I agree. My Cash female was natural point, back (and kinda retrieve). I force broke her, but it was VERY easy and quick. She was also natural STWS. I only hold her to the shot now. She is about 40 pounds of muscle and I love her to death. I have ran her in 5 NSTRA trials and placed her 4 times.

Up Hunter, I told you once already that one of these pups is right here in your state already

PacificPointer · Post by **PacificPointer** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:05 pm

petrey10 wrote:I have an EP and want to learn more about the genetics of the breed. By this I mean the who's who of the EP's these days. Who is winning? What breedings are producing the great dogs? I will be in the market for a female pup here in about a year so I need to start learning more now.

If you want info on genetics then you need to talk to Mike Logan at Bo Darc Kennels.

You should also call and talk to F. Miller himself.......

Here's a diferent perspective as I live on the west coast and there are really NO established kennels out here.

What your not hearing from these guys is the phrase " your next good dog is around the corner ". IMO your going to have to go thur a whole bunch of dogs to get the ones you like. DONT be afraid to get rid of the dog you did all kinds of research on.

Also, ask to see some video of these dogs....... Video is going to change the sport from a " write up" to

Remember plan on going thur a bunch of dogs......

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:15 pm

If you want info on genetics then you need to talk to Mike Logan at Bo Darc Kennels.

If it wasn't for Mike's Daisey Mae dog, my Sarah wouldn't be here today!

oakcreek · Post by **oakcreek** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:25 pm

Yawallac these pups are 4 months old and it's not uncommon for a couple of them to get out there 100 yds by themselves, I have had to sing to them because a couple are stretching out and they are hard to see in the taller grass. Of course you have to know that it used to be normal for my seahorse bitch to make 1/4 mile casts.

MARKNE · Post by **MARKNE** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:41 pm

[quote="Yawallac"]MARKNE,

I prefer a dog that is VERY fancy, stylish with a lot of speed, a true Shooting Dog. Too much Elhew and you can get plodders IMO. But crossing Elhew with the right combination can produce some very nice dogs. Wehle knew it and his best dogs were all produced from crosses. Line breed for consistency and outcross for vigor.

Yawallac,

Thanks for the reply, I'm sure I'm taking for granted on what I have, when talking about Elhews.
She's a granddaughter of Deep CreekKate, so I'm sure that extra splash of Dunn's Fearless Bud has put that extra bit of go in her run. Very much a dog "on the move" but very biddable.

"up-hunter";

As far as how pointers do in the cold; I live in Nebraska and the last month has beeen a frozen tundra. The last three times I've been out when we stepped out of the truck it read 2 degrees.
I think the overall health and care of your dogs play a bigger role than how thick their coat is.

Just my 2 cents...
The Pointer been the easiest dog I've ever to trained or I should say truthfully "I just hunted her a lot, and let the genetics come through !

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:29 pm

I just spent the afternoon with Gene Casale! Am I the luckiest Pointer guy or what?!? What a very special man he is. Anyway, I picked up two Rail Dancer pups to train from his kennel in SC. I will post some pics tomorrow. After I loaded them in the truck he invited me in and we talked dogs for about two hours. Really, really neat! He has forgotten more about Pointers than I know.

BarkRidge,

Here is something pretty cool. Gene told me that the very first Pointer that Stan Wint ever bought was a little Guardrail pup from him ...a long time ago.

blueblood · Post by **blueblood** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:33 pm

yawallac,
I hope I got your name right. I sent you an e-mail regading some pointer advise. I have a 9 month old pointer who has been really slow coming into being staunch on point. My e-mail explains myself. I look forward to hearing from you.

BB

blueblood · Post by **blueblood** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:35 pm

Here are some pictures of the lttle guy on our last grouse hunt.

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:51 pm

Those Rail Dancer pups,did you purchase them or have them for training?
Do you still have that Guardrail daughter? If so how's she doing?
Been trying to access your website but all I get is your Training Page?
Have you been having any trouble with it? Maybe you could post a hyper link here to it.

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:55 pm

My last post was for Yawallac.

petrey10 · Post by **petrey10** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:38 am

wow guys this is a lot more dogs than I can remember but I am learning a lot. Thanks.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:25 am

Those Rail Dancer pups,did you purchase them or have them for training?

Bojack,

A client bought them and I picked them up. They will be with me for training. I'll get some pics today.

Do you still have that Guardrail daughter? If so how's she doing?

"Girl" is doing great! She is a bird finding machine. She is also a new mother with a litter of Blackhawk pups!

Been trying to access your website but all I get is your Training Page? Have you been having any trouble with it? Maybe you could post a hyper link here to it.

I'm not aware of any problems with my site (except that I haven't updated it lately) I have a number of broke and started dogs for sale that need to be uploaded. http://www.caladenkennels.com

Drifter Saver · Post by **Drifter Saver** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:10 am

Yaw,

My training grounds don't quite look as green as yours...seems to have this 14" blanket of white stuff all over it.

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:48 am

She's a Beaut.Should be some nice pups in her litter with Blackhawk.Does all of Blackhawk's pups that you know of naturally run big? Yea post some pics of them Rail Dancer pups.Did you pick Gene Casale's brain as much as humanly possible in those two hours?Ha ha.That had to be quite an experience and an honor.Got your web site now.Don't know what the problem was before.

Rich Kovacic · Post by **Rich Kovacic** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:55 am

UP Hunter, I have two pointers and I hunt them in the PA Grouse woods til the end of Jan. When hunting they are both fine, in the kennel one wants to come in when it gets down about 10 degrees. The older one would stay out but I bring him in also. I leave them in a car kennel in the garage, til morning. The Elhew/Miller dog is the one that wants to come in, the Fidler dog is tuffer. The Elhew Miller dog is a real grouse hunter. The Elhew/Miller is the breeding for me. I have a buddy that has a litter mate to my dog and they are great grouse dogs. He may pass up a few but very seldom bumps a grouse. I am getting a pup out of HiFive kennels, Jasmine/ Sugarknoll Buckshot.

up-hunter · Post by **up-hunter** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:33 am

Thanks rich that's what I was wondering because they don't seem like that have much of a coat, but alot of people hunt gsp's up here and they seem to do fine, so just over analizing i guess.

thanks

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:38 am

Bojack,

I had a great time with Gene. I actually spent an hour with Gene about a year ago at a local horseback trial. I was running Sarah as a Derby and he had a young male Derby he was running. When we broke for lunch I sat next to him in the club house and asked a thousand questions. Yesterday, I just continued the conversation. He is such a gentlman and truly fascinating to talk to. The last thing he said was, "Come on back and we'll run some dogs!" You know that I am going to take him up on that offer!!

Girl whelped five pups and I won't be selling any. Jim Harris has a littermate to Girl and has the exact same litter on the ground. He had 12 and his are about 6-7 weeks old. Here is the link to his page: http://www.harriskennels.com

Gene bought two of those pups for a Rail Dancer straw. He has about 10 RD straws left he said. I'd love to get one for Girl down the road. Anyway to answer your question, no, not all Blackhawk pups run big. Some do and some don't. I have been told that Blackhawk pups develop their run later. That may be. But the thing is that even the biggest running dogs will handle in tight cover if trained to do so. Gene and I talked about that yesterday as well. Seems many people feel that a big running pointer will only run big. That is simply not true. A well bred Pointer will run big if the cover presents itself and will shorten up in tighter cover. Girl and Sarah are perfect examples of that. If I mount a horse they GO but in the woodcock cover that I hunt a lot they stay close.

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