EP or GSP?

tony.a · Post by **tony.a** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:28 pm

Hi everyone
In about 2 weeks now I will be going to pick up my new pup (CANT WAIT). We have a choice for what breed it is though. We can either get an English Pointer or German Shorthair. I know both breeds can make really good bird dogs when trained properly but I've had no experience with either of the breeds (or with any gun dog breed to be honest) so I am still not sure with which one to go. I have seen people use both the EP and GSP for hunting and both breeds performed really well. Any suggestions?

Also because am a first time dog owner I have many other questions so am going to list some of them here:

1) How many times and how much food do you feed the pup a day?

2) When can i start taking it for walks?

3) When can i start doing somne basic obedience training?

4) When should I start doing some more advance training and hunting training?

5) Should I use an e-collar and if yes when shall i start?

6) Can you recommend any good books or Videos/DVDs for training pointing dogs?

7) When should i introduce the pup to birds and to the gun?

I think that's about it for now but am sure i'll come up with more as time passes

Any help will be greatly appreciated

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:34 pm

If you are still in the selecting a breed stage, I'd tell you to wait far longer than 2 weeks before getting a pup. I'd tell you to pick a breed by spending time around each, go to events, "interview" breeders, have those breeders work their dogs for you, tell them exactly what you intend to do with the dog, etc. etc.

THEN, worry about training the dog...buy Delmar Smith/Bill Tarrant, Wehle, Crangle, spend time reading versatiledogs.com, this site, uplandbirddog.com, etc. on training.

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:37 pm

I agree with Texas here and tell you to slow down and understand just what you want the dog to do as an adult.

Ist suggestion is to throw that list away and concentrate on taking the pup to as many places as you can take it before it is 26 weeks old. That is called socialization. During that time the two of you will answer most of the questions.

It will take over 2 years to get close to what you want the dog to do.

IMHO

Pepper :roll:

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:44 pm

Bird dogs are a lot of dog for a first time dog owner.

You might want to consider buying a trained dog and having the trainer give you some lessons in handling it, then let that dog teach you about birdogs.

tony.a · Post by **tony.a** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:52 pm

Thanks a lot of your repplies.
We have been on the "selecting breed stage" for about a year now and we have looked at those websites and more practically every day since christmas

After we've been to many breeders (of other breeds as well), hunts e.t.c we have narrowed our choice down to those two breeds because they are both dogs that i can see my self hunting with. The reason am getting a puppy in two weeks is because we have looked at many breeders over this year and we found one that we really like (that has both EPs and GSPs) and he will have pups from both breeds ready in about two weeks. Am pretty sure though that when i go there and see so many puppies running at me, there will be one that stands out the most so I'll be able to make up my choice (hopefully)

I'll let you know how it goes.

zdiddy · Post by **zdiddy** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:55 pm

from personal experience gsp's are great family dogs as well as and they give you a chance to catch up. As long as you socialize them to areas and people early and often. I take it you just want a hunting companion. Give it a year or so to be a pup and check this site and many others as much as possible. EVERYONE learns by there mistakes. Best way to train your birddog" by bill tarrant is a great book amazon has it for 12-15 bucks get it.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:13 pm

Well the biggest difference is the German Shorthair is more likely to have a strong natural retrieve especially water retrieve, and a better tolerance to cold weather so where you live should have some impact on your choice. If its hot where you hunt the EP would probably be better.

If you have not done a lot of training the natural retrieve of a shorthair would help out, if you know what your doing the difference is a lot smaller. The other fine points of training these two breeds are pretty much the same.

Eps are good family dogs also very friendly and loving, mine are every bit as much as the shorthairs. I like both breeds a lot.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:41 pm

quote:
Well the biggest difference is the German Shorthair is more likely to have a strong natural retrieve especially water retrieve

Haven't you been paying attention????
Yawallac has repeated told us all otherwise.

tfbirddog2 · Post by **tfbirddog2** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:20 pm

Being a shorthair guy and for a first timer that would be my pick, but also depending on how high power the parents are and what kinda of range you like hunting. Try reading lots of different bokks dont just stick to one.Personally I like "The Ultimate Birddog Training Book" great book for the basics and if you have a Orchelins near by they keep that book on hand get a subscirption to "Gun Dog magazine" they have puppy artclies right now.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:43 pm

Haven't you been paying attention????
Yawallac has repeated told us all otherwise.

Actually, YOU haven't been paying attention.

IMO, GSPs have more retrieving instinct and more water love.

Pointers have retrieving instinct and water love but in most cases care must be taken to nurture it properly.

For a first timer I would go with the GSP. A well bred GSP is pretty tough to screw up.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:19 pm

I'd get a ton of references and call many of those people before buying a pup from a person who breeds multiple breeds. I have spent 10 years trialing GSPs and 44 years with shorthairs and still feel like a newbie in some ways. I know of few who can do two breeds well, truly knowing the lines, knowing what crosses well, what lines should and can be linebred, what parents produce, what grandparents have produced, hunted all of them fully, etc. etc.

I still think you should decide what breed, then what breeder, see that breeder's dogs run through all of their paces, backing, retrieving, in the house, birds killed over them, around their pups, around kids, general temperament, etc. etc.

What does the breeder hunt? Hunts same species as you will? Are the breeder's dogs house dogs? Do you want a house dog? How do his dogs act in the house? What do owners say of pups by his female? What about the stud dog? Are the dogs titled? Are you taking the word of a person who wants to SELL you a dog?

Quite honestly, I don't sell pups to people who have never owned a GSP in the past. I don't sell to those who don't hunt at least 25 plus days a year? I prefer competition homes. I want all dogs to be house dogs. I strongly point buyers to a specific trainer, or two. If I were buying my first pup these days I would want the breeder to use a microscope on me to ensure his pup is going to a great home.

Beauty of this country, it's free. I'd still tell you that you don't know enough as of yet to make the decision that will be with you for 10 to 15 years to come.

NE Vizsla · Post by **NE Vizsla** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:20 pm

adogslife wrote:quote:
Well the biggest difference is the German Shorthair is more likely to have a strong natural retrieve especially water retrieve

Haven't you been paying attention????
Yawallac has repeated told us all otherwise.

hubweims · Post by **hubweims** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:04 pm

i am partial to a weim, BUT if i were to get another breed, i have told my wife it would be a gsp. i hunt my weims with both ep's and gsp's where i live. if it's your first gun dog, i would have to say go with the gsp. ep's are gorgeous dogs, but can be a bit much for a first time dog hunter/trainer. however, you can slug an ep with a 2x4 and it will still want to hunt birds. (NO, I HAVE NEVER DONE THAT) so, it can be nice to have a dog so driven to hunt birds. anyways, GSP gets my vote.

Pryor Creek Okie · Post by **Pryor Creek Okie** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:55 am

TrueBlu Shorthairs wrote: I'd still tell you that you don't know enough as of yet to make the decision that will be with you for 10 to 15 years to come.

TruBlu, didn't we all get a first dog at some point? He's visited kennels. He's seen the different breeds hunt. He's done his homework for a year now. He has narrowed it down to two breeds (excellent choices BTW) and is simply looking for opinions from some experienced bird dog owners.

Tony.a, I've always been a pointer guy and I have never had a GSP puppy. I do have an adult GSP and she is a wonderful dog. I would get a recomend a GSP for a first bird dog. Pointer puppies are a handful. Read some of the material that TruBlu suggested and don't be afraid to ask questions on this site.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:06 am

My eps ( although I'm definitely not a first time trainer) really aren't any different than my shorthairs except they don't like to swim like the shorthairs they just wade

. I'm sure if I tried I could get them to water retrieve ( well reasonably sure).

If you live in a hot place like AZ I would still look at the EP's water retrieves arent really all that important for upland hunting, if you hunt mostly pheasants in the colder north I would lean toward the shorthairs they seem to be much more willing to ground trail.

the difference is more lines than breeds in this comparison

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:06 am

Pryor, YES, we all start somewhere, I was giving him some things to think about. If one can learn from other's mistakes, then he certainly should, wouldn't you say? When a person asks how much to feed a puppy I would tend to believe that person isn't quite ready for any dog muchless a pointing dog that will require so much work.

Are you from Pryor, OK? I'm from Jenks and have a good friend in Pryor?

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:48 am

yawallac,
I have read on other boards that you claim that if EPs are raised the same
as a GSP, the EP will believe it is a GSP.

I'm sure I misinterpreted your statement.

I also believe that a GSP is a better choice.
A very forgiving breed for novice trainers and handlers.

Pryor Creek Okie · Post by **Pryor Creek Okie** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:06 am

TrueBlu Shorthairs wrote:Are you from Pryor, OK? I'm from Jenks and have a good friend in Pryor?

I'm from about 20 miles north of Pryor. Pryor Creek snakes it's way through my families farm and that is where I developed my addiction to bird dogs and bobwhites.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:08 am

I have read on other boards that you claim that if EPs are raised the same as a GSP, the EP will believe it is a GSP.

If you train a Pointer pup the way I train a Pointer pup, then they can become very effective "versatile" dogs. My Pointers certainly don't know they are any different than my GSPs. But as a trainer, I know that they are different and the training must be adjusted slightly putting more emphasis on one thing than another. It's all the same training, only different.

But for a newbie, the breeds are different and IMO GSPs are pretty tough to screw up. A well bred GSP pup comes out of the womb just about trained. They are a great "starter dog".

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:31 am

Up here in Minn. we have a fella that has put a UT P1 on a pointer, and I have heard is working on a second one.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:44 am

He sounds like my kind of guy.

Sarah does about the best Duck Search of any dog I have owned but I am not going to run her in NAVHDA until her field trialing is done. Right now she runs a wee bit too big for NAVHDA.

tony.a · Post by **tony.a** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:00 pm

Thanks a lot of everyone. You've been a great help. It seems that pretty much everyone thinks the GSP is a better choice so I think that that would probably be my choice.

TrueBlu, The only reason I asked how much to feed my puppy is because I have always been told to feed the puppy 3-4 times a day when I first get it, then when it's about 2.5 months I should reduce it to 2 times a day and then when it's about 9 months I should feed it about once a day; but I've been to see a breeder about a month ago and he told me that I should feed it twice a day when I get it and then when it's about 5 months I should reduce it to once a day, or if I don't I can end up with an over weight dog that is a very poor hunting dog. So I just wanted to see what some experts like you lot think

Thanks for your help again and I'll let you know how everything goes

KDaft · Post by **KDaft** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:10 pm

It seems like your mind has settled on a GSP, great choice I must say. I am a newbie to the forum and breed myself, our puppy is 4months old now and doing wonderfully, very smart and very active. I know how it feels when you're getting started, you want to do everything just perfectly so that you and your dog have the best start. I probably asked my breeder two or three times when and how much to feed my puppy, then I repeated the question to my vet every time we went for shots so that I was positive he was getting what he needed without becoming overweight. I probably asked a million other questions, and I still call and ask questions. If you have a good breeder they will ask you a variety of questions too and help you through the entire process.

Best of Luck to you, enjoy your new puppy.

nrcgsp · Post by **nrcgsp** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:44 pm

Good luck with your new puppy (which ever breed you decide on). We have been raising GSP's for 14 years now, I however was raised around pointers and setters, so I have a love for them all, but must admit it is the gsp who holds my heart the closest now. (and has added a few cracks in it as well

)
We do have an EP at the time as well, and like it has been said, I think he thinks he should be a gsp as he has been surrounded by them and their personalities. We have had other pointers in the past, but this one has been my favorite always. He is a very personable dog, as are our gsps.
Best of luck, whatever you decide, treat it with respect (but authority) and lots of love! It will return the favor

arrowbanshee · Post by **arrowbanshee** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:04 pm

But for a newbie, the breeds are different and IMO GSPs are pretty tough to screw up. A well bred GSP pup comes out of the womb just about trained. They are a great "starter dog".

This statement is oh so true, I am beginning to believe my 5 month old GSP knows more than I do and I think the trainer is training me more than he is my dog!!

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:33 pm

I think the trainer is training me more than he is my dog!!

I can tell from your avatar that he still has a ways to go.

Ezzy

hubweims · Post by **hubweims** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:44 pm

tony,

feeding schedule is gonna be what you think is best for you and your dog. most vets and exp dog people recommend 3x a day for a young pup. however, many of us are unable to do that schedule. if you can, great, if not 2x will suffice. when the pup gets older then you decide what works best for you and your dog. i feed 2x daily. whatever the amount i want to feed per day i split it in half and feed twice. the pups weight can be observed and you can titrate rations accordingly. remember, especially the first year, the pup's weight will likely fluctuate as it comes into and out of growth spurts. i find there to be benefits from feeding twice. one being the dogs have less hunger pains, and you can help control the wolfing of food a little better. the biggest concern with feeding is feeding the right feed. find a premium feed that is easily accessable for you and your dog enjoys. what you feed is more important than how you feed.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:55 pm

I would have thought this would be rather obvious, but it makes no difference how many times a day you feed your dog as far as weight gain is concerned, it is how much you feed your dog. DO NOT GET YOUR DOG OVERWEIGHT.

8 week pups do quite fine on 2x a day. I never switch the dogs off that myself, but you can go to 1x a day at 6 - 8 mos. without much trouble.

tony.a · Post by **tony.a** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:28 am

Ok, So now that feeding is sorted time to get the pup

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:49 pm

Get the EP and don't look back.

Don · Post by **Don** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:06 pm

arrowbanshee wrote:

.....I think the trainer is training me more than he is my dog!!

Boy if you only knew. I always found that the easiest to work with was the dog!

arrowbanshee · Post by **arrowbanshee** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:22 am

my nose aint great and Im not very staunch on point, but I think I am showing a little potential

nrcgsp · Post by **nrcgsp** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:53 am

Arrow,
I have tried to be really nice to you considering you have a pup that is a grand"pup" to Magnum, I think I have to agree w/some on here though that... your style might improve with a different avatar

Just giving you a hard time. In all honesty, it is very funny how much the dogs already know, just need to work with you.

arrowbanshee · Post by **arrowbanshee** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:21 pm

In here, I can be kinda "hard headed"...especially when it comes to my avatar. In the field, I would like to think that I am somewhat biddable

nrcgsp · Post by **nrcgsp** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:26 pm

Good qualitites to have a little hard headed, but trainable.