Sis about 22 weeks

[DonF]

She hit #5 way out and on the edge of the scent cone, Re-located on her own and stopped about 10 yds out and stood to the flush. Number 6 She hit about 15 yds out and never moved till the flush. This photo is number 7. she hit it maybe 8yds out going cross wind to her left as she's standing here. Flipped around, hit point and stood to the flush again. Really liking this pup! About 22 weeks now and just getting going on birds. She come's when she's called if she want's to!

[weimdogman]

Great when it comes together!
Nice stylish pup. You should be proud!

[Featherfinder]

Looks and sounds like you have one heck of a cracker!
Just wondering why you are letting this dog stand "til the flush" and then break? Why are you not helping her to naturally stand until YOU want her to move on? Or, perhaps you are happy with her standing to the flush which is perfectly fine. Just curious....?

[greg jacobs]

Nice. Sounds like she is doing pretty good for 5 months.

[DonF]

Looks and sounds like you have one heck of a cracker!
Just wondering why you are letting this dog stand "til the flush" and then break? Why are you not helping her to naturally stand until YOU want her to move on? Or, perhaps you are happy with her standing to the flush which is perfectly fine. Just curious....?

She stand's till the flush. If she so much as glance's at me going around, I pop the bird on her. The idea is any movement by her flush's the bird. Don't know that I'll break her out yet. If I do, it won't be till after whoa training. Once whoa training is pretty much done, I'll take her back in the yard and advance on whoa with the check cord on. Start out simply stopping her, pause and then releasing a live fly away. She move's I stop her. The idea is that a flying bird means whoa. From there I go to a hobbled live bird with flight feather's pulled and pretty much the same thing. But at this point, I start with dropping the bird behind me, the dog is going to break and I'm between the dog and the bird. Idea here is a bird walking around on the ground means whoa. The last part is I throw a dead bird down and fire a blank gun. I guess you figured the idea of that out. Now one thing is important with this. the first time releasing which ever stage I'm at, there's the whoa command, stop the dog, a short pause and release the bird and enforce the whoa command. The command and the release get closer together each time until I can stop the dog by simply releasing the bird. At that point the action become's the command.

[mask]

Hey Don, your pics are always welcome and appreciated. Your training method and explanation should be a help to anyone. Thanks for being willing to share. Bill

[Meller]

Looking good Don!

[Featherfinder]

Well Don, while I might go a different path, if this girl looks anything like your other dog....keep it up!
Thank you for the explanation.

[DonF]

Well Don, while I might go a different path, if this girl looks anything like your other dog....keep it up!
Thank you for the explanation.

You bet!

[Featherfinder]

When I have a dog with that amount of natural ability, I like to nurture it while staying on course. What many folk typically do is, they follow a predetermined training regimen which too often un-trains a gifted pup. The irony is that later on it has to be re-trained which can bring inherent challenges or in the least, is unpalatable for both pup and owner.
My point is that while following a dated/prior training regimen, their recollection of how to steady a more mature/un-trained/harder-headed dog seems inappropriate for such a young dog and....they would be correct. But, why untrain and then retrain??
It is considered in some trial circles that allowing a gifted dog to become un-trained to be later retrained increases "run".

[bonasa]

What many folk typically do is, they follow a predetermined training regimen which too often un-trains a gifted pup.

Explain. I am confused. Yes, many follow a predetermined training regimen that builds upon fundamentals and no progression is made until the previous task was mastered. How does this un-train a gifted pup, or any for that matter?

Not to derail, great work Don; a keeper for sure!

[Sharon]

"When I have a dog with that amount of natural ability, I like to nurture it while staying on course. What many folk typically do is, they follow a predetermined training regimen which too often un-trains a gifted pup. The irony is that later on it has to be re-trained which can bring inherent challenges or in the least, is unpalatable for both pup and owner." quote FF


bonasa: "Explain. I am confused."


I think it is something like teaching a child to read. An experienced teacher follows the first 6+ steps in teaching a child to read, however if you get a really smart kid in class , who has mastered steps 1-6 on his/her own , you don't start at step 1. That will only frustrate the learner and possibly hold them back from progressing as far as they might have.

[cjhills]

One thing I find, is that naturally talented, intelligent dogs, sometimes take their natural abilities at face value and need more training about the time they reach maturity......Cj

[averageguy]

One thing I find, is that naturally talented, intelligent dogs, sometimes take their natural abilities at face value and need more training about the time they reach maturity......Cj

I think that is a path to an excellent finished wild bird dog to a large degree.

Many or most dogs today never achieve that due to a lack of wild birds in wild places to hunt. Released birds are easy to find and Hunt Test titles are easily achieved in released bird environments and so it goes for alot of folks with alot of dogs. Most pups these days unfortunately spend far more time in small fields being worked on strong smelling dumb acting planted birds than they do being allowed to develop their skills searching for, finding, pointing and holding wild birds in wild places.

To excel a pup must learn to search whatever birds and terrains it is turned loose in, find, handle and point wild birds allowing me to flush and shoot, mark and retrieve them to hand when shot, on land and in water, and hunt dead for dead or escaping cripples for as long as it takes to recover them.

Whether the pup remains standing to WSF while doing all that in it's first foundational hunting season is WAY down the list of critical development for my pups.

[Featherfinder]

Sharon, you are spot on!
I am 100% on board with Averageguy that a theoretically fully steady dog is NOT a savvy wild bird hunter. I just go a difference path on how to get there.
Here is where one tangible difference is. You can have a completely steady to WSF dog that retrieves and handles wonderfully at a very young age. The reason is, I provide the pup with it's early life experiences. As such, it only knows what I have exposed it to, unlike what a large majority of trainers do. They typically expose their pups/young dogs via freedom to run hither and yonder, flush, chase, etc. etc. What I refer to as un-training. Subsequently, you must embark on a process that re-trains them to work for you, hold steady, not run to the next time-zone, etc. etc. I prefer that the bird species dictate range rather than trying to reel in/over handle an owner-induced renegade. You will detect these owners even when out-of-site most frequently by the incessant whistles, hacking and expletives.
If I had literally thousands of wild birds available to me, they would not establish the early training I seek for my young dogs. Because I control all the pieces/parts of their early exposure, it's all they know.
The ensuing stages allow the dog to experience wild birds BUT here is a wonderful outcome of what I am alluding to. My dogs handle pigeons in training, pheasants at the hunt club, quail in the central mid-west, Huns on the prairies, grouse in the dense north woods, etc. knowing full well what gets them what WE want. All that remains is focusing on the dynamics specific to the wild bird species/habitat which happens even more expediously rather than whether they will handle them appropriately. Yes...there is a learning curve...an exponentially shorter one!
You cannot get the reliability or consistency that I do on the various species because in the back of your dog's mind are those early experiences of running rampant and ripping birds. You can redirect them BUT you can't simply erase them. What is ironic is that the seeded element of doubt was planted by their trainer!?! Some dogs ACCEPT that they HAVE to stay steady, or else! Some question whether the boss will know/see them rip birds in heavy cover or behind that hill. Some dogs will just have that past experience resurface at THE most inappropriate time(s)! I witnessed this MANY times in trials.
I successfully ran puppies in derby stakes and derbies in adult stakes for years! I placed young dogs with respected pros on the major shooting dog circuit because my dogs were finished AND still young ($$$$)! It's not me. It's my understanding of the modern canine's potential and their genetics.
Further-more, most folk underestimate the value in genetics as it applies to the mature dog. When I was 49, I cycled a decent distance into the city, worked out in a gym then cycled home - watched my food intake/value, etc. I was also training/running dogs. And STILL I had a double by-pass just before I turned 50. The doctor said I was in excellent shape and that it would serve me well but GENETICS RULE. (I have a family history rife with heart disease.) I bring this up because things like your dog's style, intelligence, conformation, even tail are not all trainable. Pick your pup wisely. It will serve you in those early stages as well as down the road.
My Rita comes from 8 HOF dogs and was reliably steady to WSF, retrieved to hand and handled like a dream on wild birds at 13 months. It's as much about her genetics as her owner. *A key was her early training. She sees me as her partner and the source for her ultimate reward - a bird to point and then carry in her mouth! She holds reliably out of volition as opposed to threat of getting it wrong OR being caught getting it wrong. That is just one significant difference in what I do and why I get there so much sooner without compromising style/intensity - without whistling and hacking, with admirable reliability. It defines success for both my dog and I. And yes, she sometimes gets it wrong but then again, I sometimes miss easy shots.

[cjhills]

Why would A fully steady to WSF not be a savvy wild bird hunter. The two have basically no connection.
I take a totally different approach. I control nothing for my pups. The only training they have before they go to the field is kennel manners, obedience a solid whoa, here and collar conditioning. CC only to stop them from chasing critters we don't hunt. Many of these puppies will be naturally WSF. If not they soon learn. Movement means no bird. As soon as they allow me to walk in front, no more launchers all wild or good flying planted birds. When we go to the field they wear only an ecollar. No check cord. "Whoa" and "here" are my check cord.
If the dog shows any signs of moving on the flush a calm, quiet whoa will stop him. If I have one that wants to chase he was is solid on his whoa training. As with All training if your dog regresses and has to be retrained you need to rethink how you are training.
What I said earlier was a lot of these dogs required very little training. But may test you about the time they reach maturity. Many of these dogs will pass MH tests before their first birthday and given enough opportunities are very capable wild bird dogs.
There are thousands of capable WSF dogs out there that do what the dogs in the photos do every day. Some in spite of the training, not because of the training. There Are a lot of people with well-trained dogs..……..Cj

[averageguy]

Yes there are thousands of excellent wild bird dogs who are also completely steady to WSF while hunting - on the internet. I think there are FAR fewer actually performing to that standard in the field while hunting wild birds than exist on the keyboards. Lots of excellent wild bird dogs are steady to flush and wing, far fewer are steady to the shot and fall part, even though they are in a training field and a Hunt Test.

Nothing prevents a dog from being both except it takes extreme dedication to the whole steady to WSF level of performance to maintain it while hunting wild birds. Especially if a guy hunts alone alot.

The dogs I see remaining steady to the whole WSF standard while hunting wild birds, are all in the hands of Guides who are not carrying a shotgun. That changes everything and dogs can be maintained much easier under those circumstances.

My point of view is there is much that a pup needs to learn to excel at hunting wild birds and most of it is not learned on the end of a check cord on planted birds. Once I have a promising pup searching, pointing, holding a point and allowing me to flush and shoot, pup marking and retrieving to hand, we are ready for the pup's first season on wild birds, is how we roll.

FF,

I hear on you Genetics and there are certainly breeds and lines within breeds that are more naturally steady. My GWPs are high prey drive and work for the retrieve to a large degree. My current dog was the easiest GWP to steady I have had so far. I could have steadied him going into his first season but opted not in favor of developing his search and preserving his style. Which is not to say a better trainer than I might not have done both, but I wanted to error on the side of letting the pup be all he could be first and then overlaying that standard of trained OB. I discussed it with his Breeder and his input was/is he has never seen a dog be all it can be when required to be completely steady on birds in its puppy season. Which of course is not the last word on the subject, but rather input from an experienced dog man.

I have a Friend with a DD pup now that has been amazingly steady from an early age. So much so that he has gone forward with Steadiness training while doing field work through this summer. The pup is steady. But I am not overly impressed with the pup's actions and Search at the moment. Too tentative to suit me. I see his fingerprints on the pup at this stage. Perhaps that will change as the pup gets to hunt wild birds. Hopefully so.

[Featherfinder]

CJ, a dog can be completely steady in what I defined as theoretical steadiness. That to me means, a trainer can convey the fruits of his labor to an owner by putting out some Bobwhite and displaying how the dog is completely steady to WSF, etc. etc.
So, the dog's owner takes his awesomely trained dog to the central mid-west to hunt wild Bobwhite. He returns disgruntled and possibly thinks he was taken advantage of by his trainer. His dog either, "doesn't have the nose or wasn't trained properly" because he is busting too many covies!!
NOTHING is further from the truth regarding the training. What he did not have was an misunderstanding of the ensuing development (the next stage) of his dog's evolution as a savvy wild bird hunter.
Why?
- Because wild Bobwhite don't sit there for a dog to point and a trainer/handler to kick in the butt just to get it to fly like pen raised Bobwhite!
- Wild Bobwhite hang out in specific habitat, often in covies.
- On occasion - the owner was not counseled on how to preserve his investment in this dog. I even send a hard copy with my finished dogs which consists of a Do's and Don'ts list.
- Too often, a new owner is misdirected in HIS priorities. By this I mean, shooting birds are his first priority, so he loses his perspective and shoots (or his buddies shoot) even when the dog busted a covey/covies!
It is SO hard to get it through most amateurs that by sustaining the training - staying disciplined (not shooting bumped birds) will get him MORE BIRDS. Instead, I hear ever excuse under the sun from, "I got a new gun....", to, "I can't watch the dog and shoot!", to, "I told my buddy but he isn't a dog guy..." and so many more! To that last comment I ask the owner, "Did your buddy pay for half of the training? Maybe he would think twice?"
CJ, I hope this clarifies my personal position. Just because your dog is trained to be steady to WSF does not even remotely proof him as steady on wild birds.
Averageguy, you don't have to have a completely steady-to-fall dog to have a gem! You have to have a dog that finds wild birds, handles them intelligently, with a virtually silent partner at the helm, and retrieves reliably. It's pretty hard to question your GWP's competence based on the pics you shared. (Got any more? ) The level of steadiness is a personal choice.
I hear you loud and clear as to style/intensity too. In field trials, if 30 dogs are in a stake, it is not unusual to have a handful that meet the basic requirements. How do you pick the winner? As a judge, you then scrutinize (often with the help of your co-judge) what the loftier performances were. Why? Because there is only 1 first place.
As such, if I developed dogs that compromised those high standards, I might sneak in a rare placement but they would be reflective of the dog's restrictions. Instead, I learned to develop dogs that had what I called "Wow Factor". Those are the attributes that make a judge(s) remember your dog's name. One is style on point. The other is auto-pilot-like handling minus the overhandling (whistle/hacking), etc. etc.
I won a number AF horseback trials with a 28 lb Brittany 8itch against a field of pointers (by then, she already had her Open FT Ch so I transitioned to AF). I also won a number of cover trials (grouse) with this same Brittany 8itch against a field of setters and pointers. I put an Open FT Ch on a Gordon setter that got most of it's wins competing against GSPS and Britts. This same Gordon ran in the Gordon Nationals and was considered "too much dog for the stake" by a VERY respected judge (it also went bird-less because of how/where it ran). I placed second in a cover trial with a Munsterlander against a field of setters. You can't do any of this with a dog lacking style/intensity. These dogs had Wow Factor and were successful against the odds.
Averageguy, there's no questioning your dog's style on point from those pics. Congrats!

[cjhills]

FF:
Unless I read your statement wrong, It said" I agree with AG that theoretically a WSF dog is not a savvy wild bird dog". To me this statement is wrong. Some are and some aren't. I see no connection between what the dog does once he points the bird and how he goes about finding the bird.
You go on to talk about hunters with untrained dogs. Your second post confuses me more. Why not compare a well trained WSF dog with a well trained steady to wing and shot or goes on the shot dog. This is what most bird hunters want because they think they find more shot birds. Maybe. I don't think that.
AG's neighbor and friend JON at Perfection Kennels trains all finished dogs SWF, according to his " Perfect Finish DVD" because it is easier to train a dog steady to wing if you train him steady to shot and fall, people who want them to go on the shot let them regress, that is also why most trials, except a few short tailed breeds, don't require a retrieve, and if the do it is a setup with only one dog.
(section deleted by the moderator)
Obviously the dog needs wild bird experience and the genetics to become a savvy wild bird dog, But everything he needs to know about pointing and retrieving can be learned on game farm birds, If you don't have access to large numbers of wild birds. it may take a day or two for them to handle wild birds but they will learn quickly. The biggest reason for not being a savvy wild birddog is not enough opportunity...…….Cj

[averageguy]

CJ,

Yes you seem confused. You are quoting FF and attributing it to me. ?

My posts read clear enough. Your disagreement with them is fine with me, but never have I said other folks cannot train a dog so please do not attribute such silliness to me.

I see alot of dogs in training, testing and hunting. Most of the bird dogs (other than mine) that I hunt with are professionally trained. A Buddy of mine runs a string of GSPs that I hunt with quite a bit. He had 14 month old bitch that I hunted behind on several drops back in October while hunting Sharptails/Prairie Chickens. She ran through every bird she smelled and never slowed up as she did. I had breakfast with her trainer and my Buddy the next morning and the trainer showed me video on his phone of the same dog standing steady to WSF on training birds the month before. That Pro Trainer also talked about how one his extremely experienced wild quail, completely broke EP in his string who never pointed a meadow lark at home had pointed them all day long, as had a different GSP also in my Buddy's string. Hillhaven Hustler, Jacob Westwind bred GSPs.

All the dogs I just mentioned are nice dogs, well trained in controlled environments. All with more to learn relative to the wild birds.

The Pro Trainer I mentioned has an excellent completely broke string of EPs that I have hunted wild bobwhites over. They remain steady through the fall but key to that is he is not carrying a gun and therefore always watching, always ready to make a timely correction should one be needed.

My point is not that others (and myself) have not trained their fine hunting dogs to be steady to WSF, rather that the biggest percentage of those dogs are allowed to break and retrieve shot birds while hunting wild birds vs running in a Hunt Test which smart dogs easily know the difference. And my related point is breaking out puppies to be completely steady before they have learned their craft on wild birds is not an approach I use as I think it gets the cart before the horse.

I asked this very question on my FB page a year or so back as to how many folks kept their dogs steady through the fall, waiting to be released to retrieve while hunting wild birds. Respondents were folks with decades of experience training and hunting excellent bird dogs. Several NAVHDA and AKC Senior Judges, all with dogs with some mix of NA, UT, Senior, Master, VC, AFC, FC titles. Most all living in wild bird country.

All but one person said their dogs broke when the guns went off and birds were falling. The one respondent who keeps her dogs steady all the way through the fall does not carry a gun and guides others who do the gunning. So her dogs are conditioned that she is always watching and always ready to make a correction should one be needed. And the birds she guides on are released birds.

You seem to mistake my running the country with one dog as having only one dog to draw experience from and nothing could be further from the truth.

[cjhills]

Sorry, I did use the wrong name. Meant to say FF. But he did attribute the statement about steady to WSF dogs not being savvy wild bird dogs to you. That statement is just wrong. My Jacob VD Westwind dogs were all naturally steady to WSF and all were very savvy wild bird dogs. But as I said they need wild bird work to handle wild birds. All are hunted on wild birds at about eight months depending on their birthday A trainer who has his trained dogs running through points and busting birds as issues as a trainer. no matter what his credentials are and how he trains the dog. I have hunted wild birds with my dogs and dogs that broke on the shot and mine stand like statues while utter chaos breaks loose all around them.....Cj

[averageguy]

Well that was predictable.

The pro trainer I mentioned won't be responding to you throwing him under the bus because he is far too busy training, running and hunting dogs from dark to dark. I assure you he and his dogs are top notch.

Only on the keyboards are all young dogs immediately effective in transitioning from strong smelling training birds in training fields at a Trainer's location to running free hundreds of miles to the north in country, wild birds and an owner which are all new experiences.

FF,

Here was my pup pointing a wild bobwhite single in my MW farm country. He was 25 yards off the bird and 9 months old.



Covey point at one year. He loves to throw his nose up and drink it in when the circumstances/conditions are ripe for it.

[averageguy]

Here he is in Texas at one year of age on a covey of Bobs. I have never seen bobwhites run like they did in that country. We put my pup on the ground as the only dog the last 1.5 hours on the last day. He pointed 10 coveys of Bobs but he could not handle the pressure on about half of them as he saw them running in the naked cover away from his points and he broke and took out about half of his finds. Young dog learning his craft. No amount of training birds is going to teach it. (A couple of weeks ago he put on a clinic on running Huns and Chukars, keeping a cool head, maintaining contact on long running coveys, pointing, tracking, relocating, pointing again. Some pursuits going 200 yards ending in a covey pinned down/pointed yet again and retrieves following that. It was a thing of beauty.)





Here is the 2017 National Champion Cover dog hunting on the same ranch in Texas. I took the photo while hunting over the dog on the last day. It was a treat. The dog is bred and owned by a man who has won the National Cover dog championship 3 times. It is extremely rare that the dog has birds shot over it and hunting dead appeared to be a mostly foreign concept to the dog. Which makes keeping a dog steady easier and is pretty common for dogs being used in competition especially while they are being campaigned.

There I said it. Let the fur fly now .



I recall the Silver Spur videos links which were posted on this board and very well received. I also recall his young protege running through Sharptails with glee while his trained dog stood and suffered the puppy antics. Lots of oos and ahhs over his video, don't recall anyone taking him to school over his pup taking out birds ...

[cjhills]

I guess I don't get what the problem is. In every post I wrote I said young dogs need wild birds to become savvy wild bird dogs. They also need training in more than one field since they are place oriented and most will forget some or all of their training the first time they leave home.
They can learn everything they need to know about pointing and retrieving on pigeons.
THEY WILL NEED WORK ON WILD BIRDS TO BECOME SAVVY WILD BIRD DOGS AND STEADY TO WSF DOES NOT RULE OUT A DOG BEING A SAVVY WILD BIRD DOG OR VICE VERSA.....Cj