what are people thinking

[big_fish]

I have been dealing with a lot of people with pointing dogs and a few I don't believe have any idea of what's going on and of course a few do. I don't think they understand you cant make a bird dog without birds. A few of them I think where boarder line and I believe they are coming down to put their pups on birds. 1 fella has a littermate to my dog and it hasn't seen birds yet (just short of 9 months) and they are talking about hunting this fall and I'm not sure what they are expecting. Another fella has a 3 month old Brittany and I believe he is on the right track. All of this has me wondering how many dogs are bought with good intention but that is as far as it ever gets. I joined in on a training day with a group and I had more birds then the whole group had together and all it seemed they wanted to do is walk the dogs incircles to socialize them more time was spent on this then bird work I don't get it there were some great dogs and dogs of all stages in training down to puppys having a hard time in the grass moving behind their owners. I have stopped that game and just been training by my self and following the training program. Sorry for complaining it's just a rant but they leave me confused. I feel sorry for the dogs I guess.

[DonF]

What's gonna happen with the first guy will depend on weather or not he can get the dog into birds. If it has any kind of decent breeding it will wake up.

[Mountaineer]

Some may be thinking, "this is Ohio and I will be hitting a Preserve or over-hunted State game area".
Under those conditions, many will find their dogs will develop at a level that works for them on the odd weekend for the odd game bird...if the pups have a reasonable set of genetics.
And, that very often is good enough, as not everyone has the same concept or demands for a bird dog.
A few, just want the image of a birdhunter.

You will find many are happy if their Britt chases a rabbit or groundhog or squirrel, often proud in fact.....they are Generalists in the greatest sense with little interest beyond owning a dog and taking a walk with a scattergun.
I hate to see them sic their pups on ...just anything...as that may get the pup in trouble some day but....it is their choice.

[big_fish]

It was just a rant and I do understand everyone has their own right to what ever they want but if all they are going to do is the 1 or 2 hunts on the preserves they should have just used the guides at the preserve. The fee for the guide will be less than the supply of dogfood for the year. Im feeding proplan at 37 or so a bag and I believe the bags are 17 lbs without looking. The litter mate to mine should be a great dog my pup pointed the first bird he was on and the wing on the string the day we brought him home. I hate seeing a good intention chained to a box 51 weeks a year only to get out 1 day and some one saying he just don't have it and back to the chain. again just a rant and this type of thing will always happen.

[Mountaineer]

Everyone indeed feels the need to rant at times.

Everyone though does not need to feed ProPlan.
A good food I use for my 4 year-old setter when working hard but unnecessary and perhaps ill-advised with many dogs not needing what the ingredient levels deliver, for many reasons.
My two older ones do not receive ProPlan.....nor would a young puppy.
$$$$s can be a poor determiner of feed.
Just a rant.

One can make generalizations on how dogs are treated by the less-than-often hunters but chains do not always figure in the mix....ill-treatment on many levels can happen at all interest levels of bird dog ownership.
Just another rant.

Good luck with your pup.

[brianb]

I think part of the problem most people have is that they love to hunt but it is really hard to train on birds based on their locale. If you live in a city or suburban area, you can't throw up a pigeon coop in your yard, store pigeons or quail on your property, nor do they have access to the land required to train. Therefore, any training on birds needs to be done typically with a pro trainer or you need to have a friend with access to birds and land. Their access to land is typically on public land and that is only available during hunting season.

[roaniecowpony]

BrianB,
I find myself in that situation. I'm tethered to a life in the suburbs in SoCal, but had a taste for hunting during my few years as a boy in Montana. It stuck with me and when I turned 18 it was on. Mostly big game for much of my life, with some long periods of time away from it when I got into airplanes, and later, horses. But I always came back to some form of hunting. Believe it or not, it's easier to have and train horses in the 'burbs than bird dogs. There's just no available land to let a dog off leash legally, let alone plant birds and fire a gun. It's literally an hour drive to do that and that's a pay access area. Wild areas would be a longer drive. Keeping birds of any useful quantity is not within my city ordinances, although I have kept a handful for short times on occasion.

I weighed my options and figured, dollar for dollar, my best choice would be to buy a trained dog. My first dog was a Lab that was started and had been force fetched and intro'd to the gun. Pretty good choice, I thought at the time. When It came time for a second dog to relieve the aging Lab, I went another pro trained dog with as much credentials for the dog and trainer as I could reasonably justify tapping my slush fund for. I'd do exactly the same thing again for my situation.

[roaniecowpony]

Back to the OP "What are people thinking?"

I've seen people show up at training seminars with house pets that have never had a bird planted for them or even been assessed for their bird predation drive, only to be shown that their family pet of popular hunting breeds like a Lab, Springer, Britt, etc., doesn't have the drive to make a hunting dog. They spent probably thousands going to that seminar, with the tuition, lodging, meals, gas, etc., to find out they have a pet and only a pet. They could have spent that same money and gotten a well bred and often well trained hunting dog that was ready to hunt and often had hunting experience.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Back to the OP "What are people thinking?"

I've seen people show up at training seminars with house pets that have never had a bird planted for them or even been assessed for their bird predation drive, only to be shown that their family pet of popular hunting breeds like a Lab, Springer, Britt, etc., doesn't have the drive to make a hunting dog. They spent probably thousands going to that seminar, with the tuition, lodging, meals, gas, etc., to find out they have a pet and only a pet. They could have spent that same money and gotten a well bred and often well trained hunting dog that was ready to hunt and often had hunting experience.

Flip the coin. Some of the worst dogs I have seen came from good lines and were trained by top pro's but the owner has no clue how to keep the dog at its top level so it degrades into a POS. If the owners took a more active role in the dogs training then they could keep the dog at that level. Whether that comes from books, videos or seminars doesn't matter in my eyes. What matters is that you continue to learn and allow that to transfer to the dog. (as well as future dogs)

[polmaise]

Flip the coin. Some of the worst dogs I have seen came from good lines and were trained by top pro's but the owner has no clue how to keep the dog at its top level so it degrades into a POS. If the owners took a more active role in the dogs training then they could keep the dog at that level. Whether that comes from books, videos or seminars doesn't matter in my eyes. What matters is that you continue to learn and allow that to transfer to the dog. (as well as future dogs)

Do the 'Top Pro's' over there not train the owner also?...Over here we see that as 'Paramount' when training a clients dog?
Does extra advisement from books /videos/seminars etc possibly deflect the training and advisement from the 'Top Pro's'?

[big_fish]

Mountaineer I am not saying the price of food is what makes it I feed proplan and the Brittany likes it I was feeding eukianuba(?spelling) to my lab and he loved it but the Brittany wouldn't eat it I was saying the price of feed would be more than the price of a guide ant a preserve even if you were feeding wally world discount food. But everyone to their own that's what makes the world go around

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Flip the coin. Some of the worst dogs I have seen came from good lines and were trained by top pro's but the owner has no clue how to keep the dog at its top level so it degrades into a POS. If the owners took a more active role in the dogs training then they could keep the dog at that level. Whether that comes from books, videos or seminars doesn't matter in my eyes. What matters is that you continue to learn and allow that to transfer to the dog. (as well as future dogs)

Do the 'Top Pro's' over there not train the owner also?...Over here we see that as 'Paramount' when training a clients dog?
Does extra advisement from books /videos/seminars etc possibly deflect the training and advisement from the 'Top Pro's'? [/quot

That certainly was not my point.

[polmaise]

Flip the coin. Some of the worst dogs I have seen came from good lines and were trained by top pro's but the owner has no clue how to keep the dog at its top level so it degrades into a POS. If the owners took a more active role in the dogs training then they could keep the dog at that level. Whether that comes from books, videos or seminars doesn't matter in my eyes. What matters is that you continue to learn and allow that to transfer to the dog. (as well as future dogs)

Do the 'Top Pro's' over there not train the owner also?...Over here we see that as 'Paramount' when training a clients dog?
Does extra advisement from books /videos/seminars etc possibly deflect the training and advisement from the 'Top Pro's'? [/quot

That certainly was not my point.

How would you put the point that I would understand? thanks .appreciated as a fellow trainer.

[brianb]

I've been lucky enough to strike a nice balance living a suburban existence and being able to train a bird dog. I live in a typical 1/3 acre lot neighborhood within 20 minutes of my job near Milwaukee. But I have some large open spaces to run my dogs off leash before work in the morning. I rely on using a pro trainer near my home to get my dog on birds in the offseason. $40 for an hour a couple times a month may not be enough for some but it seems to be just enough to keep my pup progressing and ready to go this fall. I don't know how some guys do it though who live in a more urban environment. How do you get your high energy dogs enough exercise on a daily basis without that off leash run?

[roaniecowpony]

I can't get them enough exercise without taking them off leash. I end up breaking the law regularly.

To train with birds and guns, I drive an hour. The part I haven't figured out how to do well is adequate PT.

[displaced_texan]

Mountaineer I am not saying the price of food is what makes it I feed proplan and the Brittany likes it I was feeding eukianuba(?spelling) to my lab and he loved it but the Brittany wouldn't eat it I was saying the price of feed would be more than the price of a guide ant a preserve even if you were feeding wally world discount food. But everyone to their own that's what makes the world go around

Some people just want their own dog.... An occasional hunter can, and often is a great family pet, not just a neglected bird dog.

[campgsp]

. I don't know how some guys do it though who live in a more urban environment. How do you get your high energy dogs enough exercise on a daily basis without that off leash run?

Comed property, or fire lanes. I've been training, and running on a fire lane about 5 mins from my house for years. And I also have an old quarry with about 50 acres of good cover that belongs to the railroad 5 mins away. . I can shoot at the railroad, but not the fire lane. Then other spots in more open crop land, and public lands that are about 25-45 mins away. You just learn to deal. Get to know the right people and places. In other words if there is a will there is a way. Now if you live downtown city I would really wonder....

To the OP,
I feel sorry for the dogs, aswell as "some" of the owners. Not everyone knows what it takes to make a bird dog, not everyone cares. As long as they can get out a couple times a year with the dog they're happy. I've seen many could be great dogs become house pets and only hunted a couple times a year, if any. You can tell these folks as soon as they drop the tail gate it's all yelling for the dog because he took of, no control or just busting birds left and right. And then they get mad at the dog... Thats what nips at me.
"Ya, blame the dog for your stupidity" ugh...

[millerms06]

I've been lucky enough to strike a nice balance living a suburban existence and being able to train a bird dog. I live in a typical 1/3 acre lot neighborhood within 20 minutes of my job near Milwaukee. But I have some large open spaces to run my dogs off leash before work in the morning. I rely on using a pro trainer near my home to get my dog on birds in the offseason. $40 for an hour a couple times a month may not be enough for some but it seems to be just enough to keep my pup progressing and ready to go this fall. I don't know how some guys do it though who live in a more urban environment. How do you get your high energy dogs enough exercise on a daily basis without that off leash run?

I live in the city of Milwaukee and do all obedience and yard work in my backyard. The neighbors probably think I'm nuts when the daughter and I work on healing stake courses with the dogs, slap 2x4's to mimic gun shots, or mimic steadiness by the blind scenarios. It gives the dogs that extra training time that we can squeeze in our days. My daughter asked me the other day "do you think anyone gets what all of this stuff is supposed to do for the dogs?" I just replied, "do you think we will ever go hunting with any of them?" Just a nice way of saying I didn't care about what anyone else would think.

If I do not have the time during the summer or winter to run the dogs, they go on the treadmill twice during the day, especially my younger one. 1/2 mile on the fastest setting the treadmill can go on, followed by 1.5 miles on 6-7mph setting is sometimes all it takes. Other days we add in the long walk after dinner. I have a training permit with the DNR, which gives you a lot of land to work with and is only a half hour away for most of the allowable properties. If you need birds, craig's list is just a click away. In the past, I have gotten lucky finding birds when I need them on there. Belonging and volunteering with a local club helps because that is just more land the dogs work on and more possibilities to get advice now and then.

That is how I get by during the summer with the addition of going up north and running them pre-season on the family grounds. I think it would be pretty doable for others with some of it, just have to come up with something that works.

[Trekmoor]

Unless a dog was purpose bought to be a bird dog then I do not believe the majority of new owners have got a clue about what training will be needed to make it one. I long ago lost count of the number of people I had to tell, " Sorry but you have bought a sports car without knowing how to drive it and without even having a road to run it on." These people then look at their G.S.P.'s or whatever and ask where they can go to let their dogs chase game. So, I then have to explain that gamekeepers and landowners do not take kindly to dogs chasing their birds about ...... The proud new owner of the pup will then ask how to train the pup to point dummies (bumpers) instead. A few of them do not take kindly to being told that doesn't work too well.

Some of these people give in about there and take up Agility or something instead but a few make a lot more effort to become better informed and to get their dogs some game to work on. If any of you folk think it can be hard to get somewhere to hunt a dog in America you should try it here in Britain !

Bill T.

[Elkhunter]

I sometimes forget how fortunate I am, I literally have millions of acres of public land to do whatever I want on. I feel for you guys who have to struggle with the urban environment.

[roaniecowpony]

Bill T.
I blundered into finding out about what it takes to train and maintain a pointing dog. I had a Lab and took a seminar that mainly focused on pointers. Actually, I liked the fundamentals he taught so well, I took it a year later again. Later, when I acquired a pointer, I took a refresher of that same seminar.

Elkhunter,
You are fortunate. It's not easy living in the urban sprawl with high energy sporting dogs and difficulties in finding training opportunities and grounds. That is probably the number one reason I chose to buy trained dogs. Just maintaining them is a challenge. Fortunately, I have a couple of good performing dogs that have adapted well to living in a house and small yard and I've been somewhat successful in maintaining them, although I wish I could PT better. Along with the point others made...I really enjoy my dogs as companions, as does my wife, in times they aren't hunting, which by my estimate is way over 90% of the waking hours of the year (unfortunately). In my current living situation, I would not/could not keep a hunting dog I didn't enjoy living with year'round, regardless of how good a hunter it might be. It's just too tight living on a little piece of land in suburbia. I'm not complainin about my life... well maybe a little.