Drag of the breed as it relates to venue and titles....

[birddog1968]

Ya'll will forgive me if my choice of words isn't perfect but i hope the jist is clear......

I think this is where all these AKC vs AF vs Walking vs Horseback threads are going......could be wrong.

Is drag of the breed real, does breeding JH/SH Walking dogs reduce any chance of getting true Horseback AA dogs? Does
breeding HB AA dogs preserve truly great individuals that then produce all the winning contender closer working title dogs?


Is breeding HB AA dogs how you really end up with great shooting dogs and walking dogs? Is it there a downside to breeding these "lesser titles" (notice words used for effect and discussion) .....would true HB AA dogs be lost if all that was ever bred was walking dogs, shootingdogs and gundogs as they relate to AKC/AF competition?

Seems to me, if drag of the breed is a fact, then breeding the biggest going highest drive type dogs is essential to keep levels of competition high in the other venues. What say ye......


Would love to hear some of the breeders that have success trialing, take on this.

[cjuve]

Well, why don't you start running some AKC pointers in AF and tell us how that goes. If the drag of the breed is not real why are there not more of them running cause you should have equal chance of getting an AA dog from that type of breeding style aside.

[birddog1968]

I was kind of hoping someone like you wouldn't be the first to answer, way to go Chief

[solon]

http://www.fosteraward.com/Essays%20fro ... or_Leagues_

[DonF]

I have read that breeding always leans toward average. What nobody ever explained to me is what is average?

[JKP]

Is it there a downside to breeding these "lesser titles"

WOW!!! Lesser to whom? Lately this forum is showing an awful lot of arrogance. Suggest you all just form another forum where you can adore each other...I'l stay here and hang out with the mortals.

[tommyboy72]

I have read that breeding always leans toward average. What nobody ever explained to me is what is average?

So this means if you breed an exceptional stud to an exceptional dam then even if you get pups that are average compared to their parents the progeny should still be good enough to beat most other dogs out there as long as the parents are exceptional enough to be far superior to their peers and competitors? Sounds logical to me.

[Wildweeds]

Don,
Being a setter guy you'll apreciate this,many won't however because there are a bunch of AKC field champions involved to muddy the water with a jab of "See they are mediocre".................. Tom Griffin had a dog named Cosmo girl, he bred it to Havelock blacksmith and had 7 pups I believe,I've laid eyes on 4 of them, those sport some type of AKC title along the lines of but not limited to FC,AFC,NAFC,NFC their other littermates were trialed too and attained FC status and yet another littermate " I Feel Free" was the AF AA setter award winner and did in fact do the big show, 7 pups 5 akc ch's one AF CH and the other dog was just flat out hunted with live rounds and wild birds with no exposure to funny little human made reindeer games............................. NOW THAT was an EXCELLENT breeding.

I have read that breeding always leans toward average. What nobody ever explained to me is what is average?

[birddog1968]

Is it there a downside to breeding these "lesser titles"

WOW!!! Lesser to whom? Lately this forum is showing an awful lot of arrogance. Suggest you all just form another forum where you can adore each other...I'l stay here and hang out with the mortals.

Good Lord man lighten up.....i prefaced that statement as for discussion purposes only, not lesser dogs but venues with lesser run than an AA Horseback stake...Lesser is also in quotes because they are the words used in the other threads....again lighten up Francis.

[ACooper]

Well, why don't you start running some AKC pointers in AF and tell us how that goes. If the drag of the breed is not real why are there not more of them running cause you should have equal chance of getting an AA dog from that type of breeding style aside.

I can't agree totally with your analogy. I don't think AKC pointers not being able to run in AF has anything to do with "drag of the breed". But due to being bred for a completely different reason. Same reason a Dalmatian wouldn't be competitive in a FT. They aren't bred for it.

[DonF]

I have read that breeding always leans toward average. What nobody ever explained to me is what is average?

So this means if you breed an exceptional stud to an exceptional dam then even if you get pups that are average compared to their parents the progeny should still be good enough to beat most other dogs out there as long as the parents are exceptional enough to be far superior to their peers and competitors? Sounds logical to me.

I couldn't tell how it works. What I read was that breeding's lean's toward ave.

[ezzy333]

I have read that breeding always leans toward average. What nobody ever explained to me is what is average?

So this means if you breed an exceptional stud to an exceptional dam then even if you get pups that are average compared to their parents the progeny should still be good enough to beat most other dogs out there as long as the parents are exceptional enough to be far superior to their peers and competitors? Sounds logical to me.

I couldn't tell how it works. What I read was that breeding's lean's toward ave.

I agree completely. Breed the poorest of the breed and they will tend to produce better. Breed the best of the breed and they will tend to produce poorer. Everything tends to revert back to where it started. True with any reproduction whether plant or animal.

Ezzy

[solon]

I agree completely. Breed the poorest of the breed and they will tend to produce better. Breed the best of the breed and they will tend to produce poorer. Everything tends to revert back to where it started. True with any reproduction whether plant or animal.

Ezzy

Galton's Fallacy, well stated.

Consider Archie Manning

The thing is, breeding is not a random process, has so many variables, with additive, dominant, and interactive effects, the regression to the mean is not meaningful for overall phenotypes. Breed the best to the best and some will be better, some the same, and some poorer. If nothing has changed in the set of the original gene pool and allele fequencies, then regression to the mean will occur. But with breeding, you might consider for example, that the best animals are missing some alleles from the gene pool that make for a more average phenotype. When those alleles are gone, they are gone. Those animals may be homozygous for favorable alleles. Keep breeding those best animals and they will never revert back to the average of the original gene pool. In other words, breeders can reset the average.

[JKP]

Interesting would be to look at the pedigrees of the top 100 Pointer winners.....how many were bred from AA dogs....how many were AA dogs...what was the sibling performance like .... and who handled them.

I am willing to bet that more than 50% were handled/trained by Pros....that they came from a few predominate lines....winning dogs attract the best hands and the cycle is self perpetuating. No question that these are good dogs...but just because the other 95% don't show up on a chain gang doesn't mean they are all "lesser". Its a mistake to believe in your press too much. As someone said here, its possible to have some unknown "huntin' dawg" hand it to you on any given day in the field.

[dan v]

As someone said here, its possible to have some unknown "huntin' dawg" hand it to you on any given day in the field.

Oh, it's true that "any dog will have his day." It's just that some dogs are going to have more "any given days" than others. People like to tip the scale in their favor, and purchasing from a line of that as lots of "any given day" dog is a way to tip scale in their favor.