The Garmin

[raven34]

AGREED 100 percent!!!! The dog should know where its owner/handler is at times....If called it should come unless on point...We don't use one or own one....Dennis works on the biddability/handling first...

[birddog1968]

Check in/go with you should be in the dog and is partially I think how the bigger going dog is brought along at a young age. I for one and nobody else i would hope are just using a garmin to keep touch with a run off or would try many dogs from someone who only sells run offs. But it sure makes finding a pointed dog easier and keeps track of dogs in trials, for the most part. The garmin is no substitution for check in and biddability and I can't imagine anyone would want it to be, breeder or hunter or trialer.

[Wenaha]

The dog knows nothing about tracking devices. How he behaves is nature and nurture. If a tracking device makes the owner/trainer too lazy to see that his dog is developed properly, then shame on them. The dog must be responsible for knowing the handler's whereabouts and must take his direction from the direction of the handler -- he must go with you and come with you, regardless of range.

Many dogs have an unquenchable desire for game. It would be a mistake to call such a dog a run-off unless he simply abandons the handler and goes without regard to the handler. Such a dog is unlikely to be bred.

As for the Garmin Astro, I expect that the net effect on breeding is zero. These devices are not used during the running of dogs in field trials. If the dog requires the tracker, he is immediately out of judgement and does not finish. So he won't win, and is very unlikely to be bred.

Tracking devices have been used for many years and are very handy when hunting - especially if the dog is on point in cover or 'over the hill'.

[mudhunter]

I don't agree that the Garmin encourages non handling dogs.

A dog that doesn't want to go with you is no good period. All the Garmin tells you is what you should already know, he doesn't listen!

[slistoe]

The Garmin will make little to no difference to the trial dogs. It is the hunting dog owners/breeders I would worry about. They already have a propensity to breed the self-hunters under the guise that the dog has the nose - but they have restricted themselves for the most part to dogs that have little drive/desire to range out since without the hunter keeping visual contact there was no way to know where the dog might be next. Now they will be embracing the ranging self-hunters chasing the dog willy nilly wher'ere the Garmin beckons - and calling them good dogs.

[cjuve]

There is a big difference between a dog that runs big and a dog that runs off. In the country that I hunt a Garmin is not going to help you with a run off you need tele and a horse for that.

[AzDoggin]

The Garmin will make little to no difference to the trial dogs. It is the hunting dog owners/breeders I would worry about. They already have a propensity to breed the self-hunters under the guise that the dog has the nose - but they have restricted themselves for the most part to dogs that have little drive/desire to range out since without the hunter keeping visual contact there was no way to know where the dog might be next. Now they will be embracing the ranging self-hunters chasing the dog willy nilly wher'ere the Garmin beckons - and calling them good dogs.

You mean if a dog is not a trial dog, it's a "bootlicker" hunted behind by idjits?

Guess I resemble those remarks, and not ashamed of it either.

[birddogger]

Check in/go with you should be in the dog and is partially I think how the bigger going dog is brought along at a young age. I for one and nobody else i would hope are just using a garmin to keep touch with a run off or would try many dogs from someone who only sells run offs. But it sure makes finding a pointed dog easier and keeps track of dogs in trials, for the most part. The garmin is no substitution for check in and biddability and I can't imagine anyone would want it to be, breeder or hunter or trialer.

I couldn't have said it better and for me, it is a peace of mind and it sure makes it easier to locate a dog on point in heavy cover. For a run off dog, he either needs more training or I need to get rid of him. It can also be a great tool to locate a dog that has gotten himself into trouble.

Charlie

[slistoe]

The Garmin will make little to no difference to the trial dogs. It is the hunting dog owners/breeders I would worry about. They already have a propensity to breed the self-hunters under the guise that the dog has the nose - but they have restricted themselves for the most part to dogs that have little drive/desire to range out since without the hunter keeping visual contact there was no way to know where the dog might be next. Now they will be embracing the ranging self-hunters chasing the dog willy nilly wher'ere the Garmin beckons - and calling them good dogs.

You mean if a dog is not a trial dog, it's a "bootlicker" hunted behind by idjits?

Guess I resemble those remarks, and not ashamed of it either.

Feel free to read it that way if you want - or you could learn to read what is written.

[Elkhunter]

I have had my Garmin for 2 seasons and I cannot imagine hunting without one. My white EP disappears in the snow, especially when he is on point. Without a garmin he could be on point 30 yards on the other side of a rise and I could walk right past him.

[ezzy333]

The Garmin will make little to no difference to the trial dogs. It is the hunting dog owners/breeders I would worry about. They already have a propensity to breed the self-hunters under the guise that the dog has the nose - but they have restricted themselves for the most part to dogs that have little drive/desire to range out since without the hunter keeping visual contact there was no way to know where the dog might be next. Now they will be embracing the ranging self-hunters chasing the dog willy nilly wher'ere the Garmin beckons - and calling them good dogs.

You mean if a dog is not a trial dog, it's a "bootlicker" hunted behind by idjits?

Guess I resemble those remarks, and not ashamed of it either.

Feel free to read it that way if you want - or you could learn to read what is written.

I think he politely asked a question if you read what he posted.

Ezzy

[live4point]

I often wonder how alot of people's hunting would go without a garmin,shock collar and beeper collar,could many even hunt their dogs without these devices? It sure is nice to know that if your dogs in the box,and you have your gun and some shells your set to hunt,and you dont have to worry about some device not working right or needing charged up.To me it takes something away from the looks of a dog with a box hanging under it's throat,and the sound of a beeper collar just sounds out of place and takes away from the pureness of the hunt,but that's just me,to each his own.

[Neil]

I have found that it has made me lazy, the beepers started it and now with the Garmin it is more pronounced. Before either, with a little work, I could keep track of up to 4 dogs, knowing where they were last headed and if they didn't show to go where they should be on point. It took some concentration and studying of habitat for objectives.

With the Garmin I have found myself walking along (or more often riding), glancing down at the Garmin from time to time, seeing where the dogs where, and continue on my merry way, often talking with my hunting partners. Then one day I realized I had not seen a dog for over 30 minutes, I knew right where he was the whole time, not really that far and to the front, so we both were happy. But you are not going to win a trial with a dog that does not show himself every 10 minutes or so.

So I have changed how handle a dog when I use the Garmin, but it had more to do with me than the dogs, and I do not think it will have any impact of breeding.

Neil

[dan v]

Before either, with a little work, I could keep track of up to 4 dogs, knowing where they were last headed and if they didn't show to go where they should be on point. It took some concentration and studying of habitat for objectives.

Neil

You were a younger man then Neil

[cjuve]

I often wonder how alot of people's hunting would go without a garmin,shock collar and beeper collar,could many even hunt their dogs without these devices? It sure is nice to know that if your dogs in the box,and you have your gun and some shells your set to hunt,and you dont have to worry about some device not working right or needing charged up.To me it takes something away from the looks of a dog with a box hanging under it's throat,and the sound of a beeper collar just sounds out of place and takes away from the pureness of the hunt,but that's just me,to each his own.

I could also ride a horse to work or even better I could walk cause of the pureness, but I don't.

[slistoe]

You mean if a dog is not a trial dog, it's a "bootlicker" hunted behind by idjits?

Guess I resemble those remarks, and not ashamed of it either.

Feel free to read it that way if you want - or you could learn to read what is written.

I think he politely asked a question if you read what he posted.

Ezzy

And I answered it in the same vein as it was asked. The question was a ludicrous extrapolation that was neither said nor implied. How you derive polite from that is beyond explanation.

AzDoggin - No, that is not what I mean.

[RayGubernat]

AZDoggin -

I suppose if you were the type of person who would use the Tracker and Astro technology to keep track of a wider ranging self hunter, which is a worthless POS by the way, and then support breeding such dogs under the mistaken view that they are good hunting dogs...

Then I suppose you might be upset by what slistoe wrote. If anyone supports breeding that kind of garbage, I for one do not care if they are upset.

Field trial dogs MUST compete without the aid of tracking devices. The only tracking device that is allowed during the running is a bell in a coverdog stake. If the handler needs to use an electronic tracking device to locate their dog, the dog is immediately disqualified.

Soooo, irregardless of how wide the dog's ground application is, it has to have enough desire to stay with the handler or it will not win. You can win with all kinds of dogs, except a lost dog.

RayG

[AzDoggin]

The Garmin will make little to no difference to the trial dogs. It is the hunting dog owners/breeders I would worry about. They already have a propensity to breed the self-hunters under the guise that the dog has the nose - but they have restricted themselves for the most part to dogs that have little drive/desire to range out since without the hunter keeping visual contact there was no way to know where the dog might be next. Now they will be embracing the ranging self-hunters chasing the dog willy nilly wher'ere the Garmin beckons - and calling them good dogs.

Ray and slistoe - I just thought slistoe painted "hunting dog owners/breeders" with an awfully broad brush in his response above. I've seen plenty of fine dogs bred by breeders of gun dogs and the implication that these dogs are all "self hunters," have "little desire" etc. does not describe every dog in this category and is IMO, unfair to those who responsibly breed great dogs but choose not to participate in trials as their measurement of the dog's performance qualities.

I've seen good trial dogs that are good hunting dogs, and I've seen good hunting dogs that, if given a chance, might be competitive trialers, it's just that their owners choose not to employ them in that venue.

[Sharon]

Well i was sure someone had posted a link to an article called ' "The Garmin and Field trials", however I've read through this thread 4 times and can't find it. If you know what I'm talking about ...................
I thinka tracker can save the life of your dog. I had a great dog stolen while we were hunting once. If I'd had a Garmin, it might not have happened.

Merry Chistmas, Happy Holidays, Happy Hanukkah to the many folks on here, whose posts I enjoy from day to day.

[solon]

AZDoggin -

Field trial dogs MUST compete without the aid of tracking devices. The only tracking device that is allowed during the running is a bell in a coverdog stake. If the handler needs to use an electronic tracking device to locate their dog, the dog is immediately disqualified.
Soooo, irregardless of how wide the dog's ground application is, it has to have enough desire to stay with the handler or it will not win. You can win with all kinds of dogs, except a lost dog.
RayG

Ray, what you wrote is true that a call for the tracker while the dog is under judgement results in disqualification. However, as Ryan points out in the article I referenced on the Foster Award site, when the heat is over and the time is up, the dog is no longer under judgement. Then the tracker can be used and the dog can still win the trial. Many judges might not look too favorably on a dog that is lost at time, but then again, they may not even see what is involved in the dog's recovery. Could be they were lost on point or it could be they ran off and were out of control.

Sharon, the link you might be thinking of is in a post of mine on the Too much dog thread. Maybe it was this:

Ryan Frame has an article on the Foster Award site on this topic and the effect of tracking collars in field trials. I invite you to read it. It is new and not listed in the table of contents, but it is at the top of the page:" "The case against tracking collars" revisited." So scroll down from the top when you open the link.

http://www.fosteraward.com/Essays%20fro ... 0Edge.html

[Winchey]

I am not aware of what trials he is speaking about in the article but I was under the impression that at our trials you had a set amount of time to recover your dog at the end of time and it had to be unaided by the tracker? Does it happen often that a dog finishes with the handler then runs off, because if the dog was gone at time then he doesn't get placed?

[slistoe]

Not sure what trials they are either Winchey. If you can't show your dog at time (or in a reasonable amount of time after) you aren't winning anything - the dog is out of judgement.
The Garmin will have zero effect on trials and trial dogs. Guys who want to win have always let the dogs roll to the edge whether they had electronics or not, because the dog that gets it done wins. The fellow who plays it safe is only hoping that he may win by default.

[solon]

I am not aware of what trials he is speaking about in the article but I was under the impression that at our trials you had a set amount of time to recover your dog at the end of time and it had to be unaided by the tracker? Does it happen often that a dog finishes with the handler then runs off, because if the dog was gone at time then he doesn't get placed?

Winchey,

The AFTCA rules are a little vague on this issue. I quote: "Dogs not under observation should not be ordered up when time expires unless the dog is hopelessly out of the stake. The handler should be allowed the allotted time under the guideline "Out of Judgment" in which to bring his dog under judgement. (That time is one third the brace time, i.e. 20 min. in a 1 hour heat). There is no obligation, however, for a judge to wait the allotted time referred to above if the handler shows that hs is not cooperating fully or is obviously endeavoring to obtain additional time for his dog to get on game." end quote. I interpret that to mean that the handler has additional time to show his dog on point, if he was establishing point out of observation as time expired. It does not mean the handler has additional time to let his dog seek and find more game. It seems to imply that the handler has that time to bring his dog under judgement after time expires if he/she wants the dog to remain in contention.

So although Ryan may have seen or knows of venues where dogs remained in contention that needed the tracker to locate them after time expired, that would not seem to compatible with the AFTCA rules. The rules don't directly say a dog is disqualified, if it can not be brought under judgement within 1/3 of the heat length of time after time expires. The rules say nothing about use of the tracker, except stake rules usually say a tracker can't be used when the dog is under judgement. That would seem to cover the grace period at time. I might have missed something and will cheerfully stand corrected if someone has better information.

[dan v]

The rules say nothing about use of the tracker, except stake rules usually say a tracker can't be used when the dog is under judgement. That would seem to cover the grace period at time. I might have missed something and will cheerfully stand corrected if someone has better information.

Solon,

I think that's a fair assessment. If the dog isn't "out", then it stands to reason he's still "in." And if he's "in", then you can't use the tracker.

[Sharon]

AZDoggin -

Field trial dogs MUST compete without the aid of tracking devices. The only tracking device that is allowed during the running is a bell in a coverdog stake. If the handler needs to use an electronic tracking device to locate their dog, the dog is immediately disqualified.
Soooo, irregardless of how wide the dog's ground application is, it has to have enough desire to stay with the handler or it will not win. You can win with all kinds of dogs, except a lost dog.
RayG

Ray, what you wrote is true that a call for the tracker while the dog is under judgement results in disqualification. However, as Ryan points out in the article I referenced on the Foster Award site, when the heat is over and the time is up, the dog is no longer under judgement. Then the tracker can be used and the dog can still win the trial. Many judges might not look too favorably on a dog that is lost at time, but then again, they may not even see what is involved in the dog's recovery. Could be they were lost on point or it could be they ran off and were out of control.

Sharon, the link you might be thinking of is in a post of mine on the Too much dog thread. Maybe it was this:



Ryan Frame has an article on the Foster Award site on this topic and the effect of tracking collars in field trials. I invite you to read it. It is new and not listed in the table of contents, but it is at the top of the page:" "The case against tracking collars" revisited." So scroll down from the top when you open the link.

http://www.fosteraward.com/Essays%20fro ... 0Edge.html

That's it . Thanks.