turkey vs grouse- comments?

[Hookadooka BirdDogs]

This is a post from a forum out of Wisconsin:
"While turkey hunting last year in May in Kewaunee County...I saw a hen grouse walking through with newly hatched chicks...must have been 8 or 9 of them. 2 jake turkeys appeared and chased them and stomped on 4 of the chicks while the hen and others scurried away...they then pecked at and ate the 4 grouse chicks. Anyone else ever witness this? "

Any comments on this topic? Some flocks I have run across now have over 100 turkeys in them. I have a photo of 27 Tom's strolling single file behind my barn. What say you.

[isonychia]

A lot of people argue that coyote are mainly the cause of grouse decline in the east. I think it has more to do with successful turkey reintroduction and habitat loss, mostly habitat loss (thick, new growth - which contrary to belief, even in native old growth forests there is more of this habitat due to giant trees falling and natural fire disturbances) unfortunately the forests in the east are poorly managed, or at least were poorly3aeswq2 2ASWZ <----- my dog just typed that...

[AHGSP]

I think there is a lot of accuracy to it. To explain, one of my best covers, in the Appalachians mind you, will produce upwards of 6-10 birds per hour. It just so happens that cover has a pretty good population of Coyotes now for the past 15-18 years and since they have established and gotten to be pretty common; the Fox population has all but disappeared, the Turkey population has most certainly been drastically thinned to where you are hard pressed to see Turkey on this mountain anymore and the Deer are being kept in better check, which by the way, has improved the health of the Deer herd. In that same time, the Grouse population went from so so and 1-2 birds per hour flush rates, to what they are now at 6-10 birds per hour flush rates. There has been VERY little improvement of habitat to have contributed to that change. Coincidence? I doubt it....


As an edit: While I like "trying" to hate the Coyote, I have come to the conclusion that the Coyote may be my best friend as a Grouse Hunter....

[gonehuntin']

Don't know if they'd "stomp" a chick, but I'm bettin' they'd dang sure eat them. They eat snakes, eggs, insects, follow manure spreaders and eat the corn out of cow crap; there can not be a more opportunistic scavenger out there than a turkey.

I can't prove it, but I wholly believe they cause a decline in grouse.

[AHGSP]

Good, that settles it. Save a Grouse, wack every Turkey you see!!!!

This is one of those times, I REALLY, REALLY NEEEEED a "Like" button on GDF!

[isonychia]

to what they are now at 6-10 birds per hour flush rates

GOOD GOD

[mcbosco]

A lot of people argue that coyote are mainly the cause of grouse decline in the east. I think it has more to do with successful turkey reintroduction and habitat loss, mostly habitat loss (thick, new growth - which contrary to belief, even in native old growth forests there is more of this habitat due to giant trees falling and natural fire disturbances) unfortunately the forests in the east are poorly managed, or at least were poorly3aeswq2 2ASWZ <----- my dog just typed that...

This is probably true. The turkey population is so healthy in NJ that people think they are domesticated birds. They literally lounge in the neighborhoods in some towns and they are attracted to the places with horses, goats, sheep, chickens , etc because of the food that lies around.

They are not shy critters.

[JWP58]

Do you think they would have the same effect on Quail?

I might have to start hunting turkey...i see atleast two flocks of 40 or more birds everytime i go deer hunting.

[northern cajun]

to what they are now at 6-10 birds per hour flush rates

GOOD GOD

Yea but he didnt tell you you had to wall straight up then straight down those are good flush numbers there bout the same in upstate ny however we have coyotes tons of them and the turkey numbers havent changed drastically and the grouse numbers have gone up.

I personally believe there are too many variables that come into play but I have and old Professor that was on my steering committee that just so happens to be and bona fide expert on both grouse and coyotes I will pass it by him. Let you know if he has any insight or studies that have been conducted.

[mudhunter]

Interesting videos clip on this site
http://www.talltimbers.org/gb-nestvideo.html

[northern cajun]

Do you think they would have the same effect on Quail?

I might have to start hunting turkey...i see atleast two flocks of 40 or more birds everytime i go deer hunting.

I do not think so quail are not forest dwelling species as much so as turkeys and grouse. IMHO. Quail is all about habitat and preds.

[MillerClemsonHD]

go search youtube etc. I have seen videos of turkeys picking off baby quail like grasshoppers one at a time.

[isonychia]

upstate ny however we have coyotes tons of them and the turkey numbers havent changed drastically and the grouse numbers have gone up.

Early stage dairy farm reclamation = great grouse habitat + the grouse cycle, what is it 7 years they say?

[MO_GSP]

When i was a kid my grandfather used to always swear that turkeys would eat quail chicks so he said would pay me $5.00 for every turkey i killed while hunting his front yard with my bb gun. Lol my turkey hunting business was in the red but it kept me from shooting his yard squirrels while waiting on those turkeys that never showed. The only other thing he ever payed me for was picking rocks in the crop fields, I got an outstanding $0.01 each.

[goldenpatch29]

I live near the appalachians in North Carolina and grouse are very hard to come by. I asked some local ole timers that haved lived in that area all their lives, and most of them said that as soon as the turkey populations started to explode, the grouse populations started to decline. Some of them told stories that where exactly like the original poster's story. Not to mention a nice flock of thirty or more turkeys can decimate the food source for the grouse in a matter of minutes and then they move on to do it yet again. But I will say that turkeys are not the only problems that the grouse have to deal with around here. Habitat loss is a huge problem also. IMO!

[isonychia]

I live near the appalachians in North Carolina and grouse are very hard to come by. I asked some local ole timers that haved lived in that area all their lives, and most of them said that as soon as the turkey populations started to explode, the grouse populations started to decline. Some of them told stories that where exactly like the original poster's story. Not to mention a nice flock of thirty or more turkeys can decimate the food source for the grouse in a matter of minutes and then they move on to do it yet again. But I will say that turkeys are not the only problems that the grouse have to deal with around here. Habitat loss is a huge problem also. IMO!

I lived in Asheville before moving to Colorado. I have seen a total of maybe 5 grouse in my living in asheville for 5 years, all of those grouse while I was hiking ( I did a lot of backpacking) but never while hunting. I moved to Colorado and I probably saw 10-15 blue grouse this season at the beginning of the season. Saw grouse on probably 40 occasions at the private ranch I worked this summer. Wish I could hunt there. Either way, more than I could have wished for in NC.

[Vman]

We have discussed this here before I believe and I feel strongly that turkeys and Grouse just do not mix. Here in Wi. when we had grouse there were no turkeys. Then about 1976 the state trapped our grouse and traded for Missouri turkeys. The turkeys were put back in the same areas where the grouse were trapped. Within 5 years there were no more grouse and they have never returned. As the turkeys expanded their territories the grouse disappeared. The DNR will argue with us until they are blue in the face that it is just a coincidence. But those of us who have lived here all our lives know better. They are only trying too save their skin. The topic of habitat is always brought up. The problem is, we have more crp or unfarmed land in the area then we ever did back in the 60s or 70s. People come out of the cities and buy what were productive family dairy farms and now are left wild. No crops at all and posted tight. They want their own little game preserves. The Amish population in the area has exploded. No chemicals so too speak and weedy fields are the results. They have all kinds of cover for the quail and grouse and turkeys. The habitat argument just does not hold water around S. Wi in general. Yes there are some areas that are farmed more extensively in the last 30 years. But those farms are not or were not in the grouse range or habitat then or now, so that it mute.
They have introduced the turkey up North in the northern grouse woods. They are now from Rock county in the South all the way to Bayfield county on Lake Superior. The northwoods was never the natural range for the wild turkey. They may not survive the harsh winters up there. Lets hope they don`t, or otherwise in about 10 years will be reading how there are no grouse up north any more either. I am a firm believer that they just do not co-habitate. When talking with the guys that have grown up here and lived here all their lives we used to see quail also. But not anymore. Very seldom will we see a wild covey.
Now,, with that said, I also believe that the epidemic coon population also has alot to do with the lack of game birds in all the states, not just here. Back in the day coon hunters were everywhere. But not anymore. The city folks post their land tight and will not let hunters on. The market for hides has fell out. They are not worth hunting anymore for money. So they are left unchecked and have exploded. The skunk and possum also have increased at an alarming rate. All are egg suckin s.o.b.s. If you want to live trap a coon just put an egg in the trap. Best bait you can use. They will go absolutely nuts over an egg. So what do you think they do when they see a grouse or quail nest? The hen turkey can fight them off, but a grouse or quail cannot.
Coyote? maybe, but they are not even a factor when considering the coons, skunks, possums, and turkeys.
The real bottom line is money. The WTF has hundreds of thousands of members. Grouse unlimited or Quail unlimited have only a fraction of the members and money. This fall, even in the Northwoods of Wi. Mi.Mn. did you ever see a flyer in the Sunday paper about the sale of grouse hunting ammo, clothing, guns, boots and game bags? Of course not. But watch next spring and pay attention too the flyers with the turkey blinds, the latest camo, the latest and greatest ammo, the choke tubes, the decoys, gun rests, calls, and other apparel. It is big money, and if there are no turkey,s it hits the DNR and the stores right where it hurts the most, in their pocketbooks, so you can see it isn`t going to happen.

[northern cajun]

A couple of takes on the turkey vs grouse debate.

http://fwf.ag.utk.edu/personnel/charper ... ations.pdf

http://nwsportsmanmag.com/2011/10/20/gr ... s-into-it/

an excerpt from the second article.


Gary Zimmer, the society’s coordinating biologist, responded with thoughts backed by researchers’ articles. Among his key points:

• A species that’s expanding its range can hurt an established species, but this rarely happens with species, such as turkeys and grouse, which historically have coexisted.

• Research using radio telemetry or cameras documented that grouse nests suffer predation, but rarely if ever by turkeys. (However, a turkey was photographed picking up egg shells from an already predated quail nest. Calcium in egg shells is a nutritional attraction to a variety of wildlife species.)

Scientists in the eastern half of the U.S. conclude that turkeys and forest grouse have largely different habitat preferences and don’t compete for food or space.

“But this is a persistent topic of conversation among biologists as well as hunters,” said Mike Schroeder, Washington Fish and Wildlife Department wildlife biologist who specializes in grouse.

Schroeder generally agrees with the eastern research, although being a scientist, he wonders if it totally applies to the Northwest.

Unlike eastern states, Washington has seven grouse species:

• Sage and sharp-tailed grouse live in the shrub-steppe lands of north-central Washington.

• Ruffed grouse favor foothills creek bottoms that extend into deciduous and conifer forests.

• Spruce grouse, also known as Franklin’s grouse, are common in North Idaho forests, but confined mostly to the Okanogan region forests in Washington.

• Blue grouse prefer forests, where they migrate to high ridges in the fall. Blues are called “sooty grouse” on the Pacific side of the Cascades and “dusky” in the interior.

• White-tailed ptarmigan prefer the high rock and heather slopes of the North Cascades.

“We have booming turkey populations in areas with a wide variety of habitats affecting most of these species,” Schroeder said.

But he stops short of concluding that turkeys are crowding out grouse.

“Competition can be indirect,” he said. For example, turkeys could be luring more crows and ravens and other predators might influence the grouse population.

Nonnative species might live with parasites fatal to other species.

Lacking funds for large-scale studies, there’s a lot Schroeder cannot conclude, but he’s confident in listing key pressures affecting Washington’s forest grouse:

• Landscape level changes. For example, forest fires that exploded since the mid-’90s after decades of fire suppression.

• Development and rural homebuilding, especially on low-elevation breeding areas for dusky grouse.

• Changes in forests as logging is followed by reforestation and maturing stands.

• Pine beetle damage to forests in the Kettle Range and other areas.

• Impacts on aspen stands, which are important to ruffed grouse. These include fire – or lack of fire – as well as development and grazing – both by livestock and elk. (The impact elk had on aspen led to allowing big-game hunting in Turnbull National Wildlife Refuge.)

“The bottom line is that we know some, but we don’t know for sure about the competition between turkeys and grouse,” Schroeder said.

That’s not likely to change as long as sportsmen care more about turkeys, pheasants and other species than they do about grouse.

“I wish I could do something to increase the positive profile of grouse,” he said, noting that even within his agency there’s little incentive to pay more attention to native forest grouse.

“The grouse in this region are a world-class resource,” Shroeder said.

Indeed, people spend thousands of dollars traveling to Scotland to bask in the traditions of hunting grouse.

Here, most grouse are harvested by road hunters.

“The danger is that we just go along not knowing much about the grouse species,” Schroeder said.

“If it’s true the species are headed toward trouble, by the time we figure that out, the only affordable option is to just close down the hunting season.”

[isonychia]

we have more crp or unfarmed land in the area then we ever did back in the 60s or 70s.

And you had more grouse in the 60's and 70's??? linkage

[Vman]

And you had more grouse in the 60's and 70's??? linkage

Unfortunatly I do not have linkage. This is real life and is not in a book.
Back in the 60s and 70s Wi. had thousands of small family dairy farms. On the road in my township where I grew up we had 18 family farms, all with dairy cattle. This section of road is only 8 miles long. When I would hunt squirrels as a kid I would hunt woodland with cattle grazing in them. It was very common. Hae you ever seen what a woodlot looks like after cattle have grazed in it for 5 months? There were Ruffed Grouse in every woodlot. If I would have wanted I could have shot 2-3 or more grouse with my .22 every time I went out. Grouse were very abundant. I also knew where there were several covies of quail on my farm. Today if you visit me I can show you those 18 farms. There isn`t a dairy cow in the valley. Not ONE. Some of the farms have been sold too out of staters who visit it on the holidays. Several are still in the family but are not farmed at all. THe pastures are all grown up, the woods are heavy with blackberry brambles and the wild animals rarely see a human in the woods. A couple of the farms, one which belonged to my Grandfather are not farmed anymore and the new owner has planted thousands of trees and put it in a woodland program to save on taxes. The fields are gone. If I take my dad up there he would not recognize the property. It is manged for deer, and the turkeys run rampant. I asked Mark if I could go up and grouse hunt like we used too as kids and he just laughed and said if you see a grouse be sure to miss because it is the only one up there. There are several more farms just like this.
But there are flocks of turkeys on every farm. Excellent turkey hunting on every farm. Some hunt them others don`t.
It is common knowledge in this area. But because it is not in a book or because the farmers don`t do a scientific study we are all nuts. Well so be it. But if you live in an area with ruffed grouse and you see the turkeys move in, you better mount your last grouse you shoot, because it may very well be your last on on that property.

[Hookadooka BirdDogs]

A few years back, I had 38 flushes on a consistently good honey hole, got my 3 bird limit. This was after the normal fall dispersal. I went back twice more that season and all my Britt's pointed were turkeys. Never even heard a wild flush. Went back to that clear cut once the next season and nary a bird was found. And that was in Beaver, Ohio, believe it or not. Just sayin'.