12 or 20?

BillGraves · Post by **BillGraves** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:28 pm

I read an interesting article in North American Hunter magazine recently that was all about using 20 g. shotguns for upland birds and the reasons why. Some reasons:
1.It's lighter to carry around all day
2. same size pellets, just less of them
3. cheaper loads (I think that was in there)

What do you all think? I carry a 12 g. semi Stoeger M2000 but this article got me thinking.

Bill

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:53 pm

Sometimes the game you are shooting could influence your choice as well, conditions you hunt, type of shots that are typical.

I plan to use a 20 for most upland game in my dogs first season - taking shots the dog has held for, and obviously ones I think I can hit. Less of a "bang" would hopefully decrease gunshyness in that first season....heck, my 20 is so light, it may spoil me and I'll stick with it.

Maybe it depends on what your goals are. Want meat in the bag? Use 12. Out primarily for dog work? 20 should be fine.

Around here I'm pretty sure that 20 gauge ammo is more expensive than 12. Makes no sense other than supply/demand I guessI

For waterfowl, I only use 12 to prevent cripples. If a person had good discipline (passed on longer shots) and was a good shot, he could get away with 20.

It's nice to have options. Heck, I'd like to have a .410 to take out every now and then...

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:54 pm

We hunted SD late season pheasants last year in December. I shot a 12 guage 870. My Father in Law shot an SXS 20 guage. We also had other guys shooting 12 guage 870's, O/U 12 guages, and my dad shot an O/U 20 guage. My FIL killed more birds then anyone else using 2 3/4 inch 4 shot. But he is really quick on the draw, and hit them hard when they were close... I don't really think it matters all that much. Like anything, shot placement is more important then guage. Thats why Id shoot a 1 guage if they made them. Ive found out a 12 guage doesn't kill any better then a 20, or 28 guage for that matter when you shoot 3 ft behind them!

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:10 pm

jetjockey wrote: Ive found out a 12 guage doesn't kill any better then a 20, or 28 guage for that matter when you shoot 3 ft behind them!

Truth.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:35 pm

For most upland game I have turned to a 28ga. Very light weight. I no longer own a 12ga but for larger shot than 7 1/2's, I turn to my 16ga. If you take the different loads and seperate them the biggest difference in proformance is how much shot the shell will hold. In my 28, 3/4oz loads are what I like. The best of these is with 7 1/2 shot. That reduces range a bit but adds more shot to the pattern. In my 16 I like 1oz of 6's. 1 oz of 6's has more shot than 3/4 oz. I also found that 6's do not meter well in my 28ga press. I got a lot of loads with well under 3/4 oz.

The same comparrison will hold tru between the 20 and the 12. The 12 will handle more shot of equal size as the 20. And it will also probably load shot like 5's and larger more consistently than the 20.

Something that all guages from 28 to 12 can do is drive equal sized shot to about 1200 fps. The main difference is gun weight and number of equal sized shot that work in the shell. Remember that a single piece of say #6 shot ends up with the same velocity and energy no matter what it's fired in.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:02 pm

If i may piggy back on this thread, what's the difference between using a gun with 28" barrels vs. 26" barrels? all things being equal.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:14 pm

I seldom shoot shot smaller the 5's, while hunting geese and late season pheasants behind flushing dogs I'll take every advantage I can, so I use a 12 gauge. As mentioned before shot size and velocity is going to be relatively equal, however the shear number of pellets that you can put into a 12 ga blows away the competition. Around me, 12 gauge shells are always cheaper that 20 gauge and you have much more of a selection. If I was shooting pointed phez, morning dove or decoying ducks, I have no problem going with a 20 gauge, in fact I have one out today for slug hunting.

orbirdhunter · Post by **orbirdhunter** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:51 pm

Its just personal preference in my book. I suppose that with a 20 you technically are shooter a smaller pattern and less dense pattern compared to a 12 gauge, but in the field i don't think that is a noticable difference.
I find that with my 20 sxs i am much better dropping quail then with my o/u 12. i think that the reason is that its thick tall cover and i'm basically shooting through windows, there is no room for a continuous swing so to speak, its snap shooting, and my lighter, shorter 20 helps me get on target quickly...also first barrel is choked cyl so on closer shots i am throwing a relatively large pattern. on a crossing pheasant i can do better with the 12, because its longer and heavier and therefore easier for me to make a nice swing through the target...its not nearly as fun to pack all day though....
there isn't anything in the upland fields in my mind that a 20 can't do as long as you do your part....i would surmise that the vast majority of missed or wounded birds are the fault of the shooter and not the shell.
I like the 20 for upland personally....but i lust for a 16 gauge for chukars and huns
Here locally i find that the cost for shells between 12 and 20 are basically the same. i have no problems finding what i need in either size....I usually run 6's for pheasants and 7.5 or 8's for quail....6's for chukars and huns also...i never shoot more then 1 1/8 oz of shot in any load at any bird no matter the gauge personally.

having said all that i don't shoot at the 40yd going away rooster either, i keep my shots to a reasonable range and hunt over pointing dogs, i've passed by the time to need to kill every bird i see. I'm looking for the great dog work and rewarding that work with a retrieve...
If your a longer range shooter at pheasants then the 12 does make more sense if your choking up to 5's or 4's as pattern density seems to suffer for a 20 once you go above 6 shot, at least that i have found, although i do have a box of fiocchi golden pheasant 1 1/4 oz 5 shot 3" 20ga shells that were given to me, but they put more of a wallop on me then i care for and i haven't found a good use for them.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:16 pm

orbirdhunter wrote:Its just personal preference in my book. ... i've passed by the time to need to kill every bird i see. I'm looking for the great dog work and rewarding that work with a retrieve...

That's about where I am too. Well said.

pointshootretrieve · Post by **pointshootretrieve** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:31 pm

Neither a 28 even lighter in most cases and patterns as good or better than a 12 and better than a 20

CHJIII · Post by **CHJIII** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:48 pm

Neither pattern as well as a 16g!

With the right loads of course.

nj gsp · Post by **nj gsp** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:04 pm

12 or 20?

16!

Just because it's a 20 gauge does not mean it's going to be lighter than a 12. Weight is entirely dependent on the make & model, and has nothing to do with gauge.

larry · Post by **larry** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:26 pm

Another vote for 16!

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:06 pm

I hav been shooting a 20ga almost exclusively for the last 2-3 years. Before that I had been a 12ga only guy. I kill just as many birds now as I did with the 12. I believe that it is deffinately a matterof preferance. If I could afford the shells i would shoot a 28 or a .410. I shoot mostly quail both wild and planted over pointing dogs, most of my shots are less than 20yds. even shooting over my lab I prefer to shoot a 20. maybe im getting old and the recoil is too much. haha

Jim

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:24 pm

I had a 12 ga. with a modified choke and I was having to pull off birds to avoid blowing them up.

I bought and have shot a 20 ga. since about 1970. Pheasants, quail, a few grouse, woodcock and some chuckar. Never needed more on upland birds over pointing dogs. I shot an A-5 with a fixed IC choke for about the first 25 of those years.

All of the chuckar and the majority of the pheasant were game farm birds, but there were a fair number of wild ones taken in the early years as well. The pheasant all seemed to be quite succeptible to a high base load of # 6's if my aim was good. The chuckar died very well with 7 1/2'S and the quail, both wild and penraised fell with some regularity to a Winchester AA loads of #8 shot.

I splurged some years back and bought a Citori in 20 ga, and have basically used that one ever since. Even though it has screw in chokes, I find myself using skeet and IC for the most part.

RayG

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:47 pm

I've got firsthand experiance with this brad,I owned(until i pulled a bonehead move with a truck canopy and driving off) a browning citori 20 ga with 26 inch barrels,it's replacement was a citori with 28 inch barrels because that is what the shop had.My personal opinion is that the 26 inch gun was far faster and snappier and was a better quail gun than it's longer barrelled replacement.However the longer barrelled gun swings smoother IMO,it was real easy to get the stubby swinging fast and shoot a hole in front for the birds to fly through on a longer crosser presentation(that's me story and I'm stikin to it

) .I've got a 12,2 20's,a 28 and a ,410,my favorite to shoot is the .410,I've taken up shooting at the released pheasants on the wma here with it loaded with # 4 hevishot,Hundreds of rounds of skeet have honed the shoot at the front of the target and lemme tell you those pheasants crumple when head shot.For wild I shoot the citori on phez with an ic/mod setup chunking #6 and #4 copper plated federal premiums,seldom does a #4 have to be fired unless a doubling opportunity presents itself.For valley quail I use a setup like Ray with a skeet/IC and shoot good old AA's in 7 1/2.I think the key to subgaging is the ability to know when you absolutey have 100% confidence in the shot you are about to take.I let plenty sail off into the blue if it doesn't feel right.Gunning birds over a rock solid point is pretty easy pickings,I often find myself counting mississippis to keep from grinding burger.

brad27 wrote:If i may piggy back on this thread, what's the difference between using a gun with 28" barrels vs. 26" barrels? all things being equal.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:21 pm

My 16 and 28 both have 28" barre3ls but, they are SxS's and don't have all that action like a pump or an auto loader. I picked up My friend Chris's 12ga 1100 with a 28" barrel and I couldn't carry something that heavy all day! It swings pretty well but my old Charles Daley 12ga SxS was smoother. I believe it's becasue of where they balance at, the longer actions tend to move the balanse point farther forward. My all time favorite upland gun was not a SxS, it was a Browning Double Auto with a 16" imp cyl barrel. I did have a Mod 870 Special in 20ga when they came out and it was really fast to point shoot. Grouse didn't have much chance. But on birds in the open where I had to swing the gun, it was a miserable failure.

Back to my friends Mod 1100, while I was looking at his 1100, I handed him my 28ga double. He said he didn't know guns could be that light, or something to that effect. When I was young, pump guns were the arm of choice and 28" mod barrels were every where. For shooting doves, ducks and game birds farther out, no dog then, it worked very well.

I think Ray mentioned he only shot 1 1/8th oz loads in his 12's. That is what I settled on also. 1 1/2oz of 6's in a target load, handloaded, served me very well and greatly reduced recoil. I wnet to that load just because of the recoil as I was shooting a lot then. I don't believe you could buy target loads back then, maybe not even now with #6 shot I found that #6 shot elminated the criples on pheasants I had with 7 1/2 shot.

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:46 pm

brad27 wrote:If i may piggy back on this thread, what's the difference between using a gun with 28" barrels vs. 26" barrels? all things being equal.

Only difference is that with 28" you would have a slightly longer sighting plane, not really enough to make any difference. Choke is what matters.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:06 pm

I only shoot my 16 guage sxs for upland it fits me well and that's the most important part. I have 12,20,28 sxs,also that i might as well sell.
I loved my 28 but i can't drop high flying crows so i no longer carry it.
The 28 shoots what is called a square load which is the optimal pattern it is as deep as it is wide. The twelve is wide but not long. The 410 should be thought of as a flying pencil, very long shot pattern but thin diameter.
Not a kids gun but an experts gun. That's why they are great for rabbits and squirrel.
Since we are on the subject if someones looking for a ugartecha 12 sxs, a italian made richland 20 sxs or another italian made 28 sxs pm me. I would love to sell them and buy some more dogs

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:16 pm

Thanks guys. Kind of figured the only difference between the 26 and 28 would be the sight plane and the "quickness" of the gun. I'm thinking about a new SxS in the future and wanted some info on barrel length before I pulled the trigger. I shoot a 20g SxS with 26" barrels now and I'm quick with that gun. You have to be when you hunt valley quail without a dog.

although that dog part changes as soon as I get my girl back in 2 weeks.

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:23 pm

My 12 O/U is a 1962 browning superposed silver pigeon,now you want to talk about a PIG heavy and it sports 30" full choke barrells,it ain't fast but...................you can really put the dishrag on em way in the heck out there.

nj gsp · Post by **nj gsp** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:27 pm

Quickness has a lot to do with weight too - my upland gun of choice is an AH Fox A grade 16 gauge that weighs 5 lbs 12 oz. It has 28" barrels. My second favorite is a Browning Citori 525 Field in 16 gauge, also with 28" barrels. It weighs exactly 7 lbs. I find that I follow through better with the Citori, probably because the weight helps keep the gun moving, but I can get on the bird faster with the Fox.

The Fox chokes originally were a tight modified and the fullest full choke the gunsmith had ever seen. I had him open them up to IC and light modified which was as open as he was willing to go, so I use spreader loads for grouse & woodcock. The Citori lives with Cylinder & Skeet choke tubes in all the time.

That said, I can't hit squat this season, but maybe that's because I need glasses... And they should be ready next week.

Getting old is getting old!

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:32 pm

DonF wrote: Something that all guages from 28 to 12 can do is drive equal sized shot to about 1200 fps. The main difference is gun weight and number of equal sized shot that work in the shell. Remember that a single piece of say #6 shot ends up with the same velocity and energy no matter what it's fired in.

This is false. Many 12 gauge loads exceed 1200 fps, and some far exceed it. Fast lead lets 1 1/2 ounce out the barrel at 1400, GPX FGP is 1485, Prairie Storm is 1500 and so forth. How is this not a huge advantage??

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:52 pm

Razor wrote:
DonF wrote: Something that all guages from 28 to 12 can do is drive equal sized shot to about 1200 fps. The main difference is gun weight and number of equal sized shot that work in the shell. Remember that a single piece of say #6 shot ends up with the same velocity and energy no matter what it's fired in.
This is false. Many 12 gauge loads exceed 1200 fps, and some far exceed it. Fast lead lets 1 1/2 ounce out the barrel at 1400, GPX FGP is 1485, Prairie Storm is 1500 and so forth. How is this not a huge advantage??

Seems like less advantage, more knowing where your round is hitting?

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:00 pm

I always try to select shells that closely resemble the fps of my skeet AA's .Just makes fall time shooting more like the rest of the year

windswept · Post by **windswept** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:03 pm

I made the switch this season. I was always a 12 guage guy. I bought a Benelli Montefeltro 20 guage and I have been just as effective with it as I was with the 12. I was worried that I would simply wound a lot of birds but to tell you the truth it has been fantastic. I doubt I'll ever go back.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:56 pm

I shoot a 12 almost exclusively now. There is virtually no weight difference between the 12 and 20 . I have a Browning Superposed Super Light. I have a Benelli Ultra Light 12. I have a Browning 20 Feather. All three weigh about 6#3 oz. Don't see any reason to shoot a 20 when I'm slinging more shot with a 12 and carrying the same weight.

crewzm · Post by **crewzm** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:46 pm

One more for the 16

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:50 pm

Weight is the deciding factor anymore. I do like the 20's but occsionally use my light weight 12. You don't want a 16 around this part of the country as there are few shells and if you can find them they are twice the cost.

Ezzy

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:22 am

I have both the 12g. RR and 20g.RR. The 20 is lighter, it comes up faster, I shoot it better. I use 7 1/2 high brass all the time for grouse in any part of the season with skeet and modified for my chokes. For me the 20 is a great upland gun. When duck hunting I use the 12 gauge. Although I suspect I would do pretty well with the 20 just never have brought it out. Just because. When in KS Pheasant hunting years ago I started using the 12 and #5's cause everyone said you need to use that. I soon put down the 12 and used the 20 the rest of the week and did well on folding the birds as the dropped.

I got to say though, I used to have a 16 gauge Ithaca pump. I really loved that gun.

Rick

SCBoykin · Post by **SCBoykin** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:36 am

There was a school of thought some years ago that the 20 provided a longer shot column than the 12 making the 20 more efficient on the crossing shots. I forget the writer that did the research. It was compelling as most misses are surely in front or behind as opposed to over or under.

I have found that when traveling out west, I prefer to carry a 20 and pick up a box of 3" shells in case birds are especially spooky or if we chase Sage.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:12 am

SCBoykin wrote:There was a school of thought some years ago that the 20 provided a longer shot column than the 12 making the 20 more efficient on the crossing shots. I forget the writer that did the research. It was compelling as most misses are surely in front or behind as opposed to over or under.

I have found that when traveling out west, I prefer to carry a 20 and pick up a box of 3" shells in case birds are especially spooky or if we chase Sage.

Although the shot column is longer, thus less efficient, the killing density is less. This is why the 28 and 12 marginally outperform the 20. A more compact and denser pattern.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:25 am

Ruffshooter wrote:I have both the 12g. RR and 20g.RR. The 20 is lighter, it comes up faster, I shoot it better. I use 7 1/2 high brass all the time for grouse in any part of the season with skeet and modified for my chokes. For me the 20 is a great upland gun. When duck hunting I use the 12 gauge. Although I suspect I would do pretty well with the 20 just never have brought it out. Just because. When in KS Pheasant hunting years ago I started using the 12 and #5's cause everyone said you need to use that. I soon put down the 12 and used the 20 the rest of the week and did well on folding the birds as the dropped.

I got to say though, I used to have a 16 gauge Ithaca pump. I really loved that gun.

Rick

You sold it? OMG

SCBoykin · Post by **SCBoykin** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:34 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
SCBoykin wrote:There was a school of thought some years ago that the 20 provided a longer shot column than the 12 making the 20 more efficient on the crossing shots. I forget the writer that did the research. It was compelling as most misses are surely in front or behind as opposed to over or under.

I have found that when traveling out west, I prefer to carry a 20 and pick up a box of 3" shells in case birds are especially spooky or if we chase Sage.
Although the shot column is longer, thus less efficient, the killing density is less. This is why the 28 and 12 marginally outperform the 20. A more compact and denser pattern.

Interesting although I find that many birds only require a pellet or two to bring them to ground (enter dog work here).

I would argue that the longer shot column is more efficient in "hitting" the bird. Nobody wants to lose a crippled bird but shoot a ruff in the toenail, he's in the bag most of the time. Pheasant......back to the 3".

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:04 pm

[/quote]

You sold it? OMG[/quote]
I was young and I bent the barrel somehow.

Rick

BillGraves · Post by **BillGraves** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:44 pm

Very interesting because I just read another article in Outdoor Life praising the all but extinct 16ga. They were saying that it was the perfect upland gauge. Cool that a lot of you hear said that was your gun of choice for upland. I had never even heard of it before you all started commenting!

Bill

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:02 pm

I love hunting a 20ga. I think the lighter weight is a huge factor. The downside is trying to find steel shells for public land phez hunting...not always that easy. My dad was just telling me this weekend about an article he had read that was talking about these professional trial gunners in England (or somewhere in Europe) that only use 28ga guns and fold birds at 80 yards like it was nothing. Sounded like an interesting article.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:07 pm

The diameter of the pattern is the same for all guns of a given choke designation. Pattern density varies, of course.

I have a pair of Fox 16's and that is all I have used on upland birds for the past 20 years or so. Prior to that I used a 20 gauge SxS. There is precious little difference between 1 oz. of shot from a 12, 16, or 20. They will all kill cleanly at 40 yards using appropriate shot sizes. Note that it takes only a few pellet strikes to kill or totally disable a bird. For the past dozen years or so I have been using 1 oz. of magnum 7's in my Foxes (choked SK/Light Mod) and have never been able to blame the gun or load for a failure to cleanly take birds - mostly chukars, Huns, Sharp-tails and some pheasants most years. I usually switch to 8's for quail and dove shooting - still 1 oz. loads.

This is a topic that provokes some debate, but it just isn't that important becuase the differences are really not significant..

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:45 pm

Ruffshooter wrote:

You sold it? OMG[/quote]
I was young and I bent the barrel somehow.

Rick[/quote]

I have a mod 37 featherweight in 16ga. Saving it for my grandson.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:58 pm

The 20 will probably do everything you need. You do lose flexibility...you don't have the option of going to 1 1/2 or 1 5/8 oz loads and you can't achieve the density of shot, especially as you go to larger shot size. As far as weight, 20's are generally less but there are some very light weight 12's out there such that I doubt it matters.

nj gsp · Post by **nj gsp** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:24 pm

BillGraves wrote:Very interesting because I just read another article in Outdoor Life praising the all but extinct 16ga. They were saying that it was the perfect upland gauge.

While the 16 does not enjoy the same market saturation as the 12 and 20 gauge, it is far from becoming extinct. Many gun makers produce new guns in 16 gauge, and every once in a while when the popularity meter swings the right way more gun makers join in too. Browning still makes the Citori in 16, but it is not a catalog gun. You can get one from shops such as Belleplain Supply (browningguncenter.com) or Bill Hanus birdguns. CZ has models in 16, as does Ugartechea, AYA, Connecticut Shotgun, & many others.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:42 pm

Does any company actually make a 16 gauge, that has been built on dedicated 16 gauge frame or is everyone of them on a 12 gauge frame? I never saw the interest in them because everyone of them seem to be the exact same weight or slightly heavier than a 12 gauge, and I can find almost identical loads in 12 gauge for less money, so I don't get the appeal. It kind of like the 28 gauges that are being built on 20 gauge frames, I know Ruger makes a dedicated frame, however I don't believe to many others are doing it.

JWP58 · Post by **JWP58** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:59 pm

Were the old Wingmaster 16ga's smaller than the 12?

nj gsp · Post by **nj gsp** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:05 pm

JWP58 wrote:Were the old Wingmaster 16ga's smaller than the 12?

This thread over at the 16 gauge society can help answer that question: http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0

MTR · Post by **MTR** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:46 pm

nikegundog wrote:Does any company actually make a 16 gauge, that has been built on dedicated 16 gauge frame or is everyone of them on a 12 gauge frame? I never saw the interest in them because everyone of them seem to be the exact same weight or slightly heavier than a 12 gauge, and I can find almost identical loads in 12 gauge for less money, so I don't get the appeal. It kind of like the 28 gauges that are being built on 20 gauge frames, I know Ruger makes a dedicated frame, however I don't believe to many others are doing it.

Merkel 1620 is 16 built on a 20 frame
Browning Citori - they are true to frame

AYA
Arrieta
Ugartechea
Grulla
Fausti
All are true to 16ga frame size
I had a 16 Citori - great gun, but sold it to move to a 16ga Uggie SxS - great gun as well.

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:09 am

Thank you.................a voice of reason..................geometry and a set opening always net a predictable end result.

Wenaha wrote:The diameter of the pattern is the same for all guns of a given choke designation. Pattern density varies, of course.

I have a pair of Fox 16's and that is all I have used on upland birds for the past 20 years or so. Prior to that I used a 20 gauge SxS. There is precious little difference between 1 oz. of shot from a 12, 16, or 20. They will all kill cleanly at 40 yards using appropriate shot sizes. Note that it takes only a few pellet strikes to kill or totally disable a bird. For the past dozen years or so I have been using 1 oz. of magnum 7's in my Foxes (choked SK/Light Mod) and have never been able to blame the gun or load for a failure to cleanly take birds - mostly chukars, Huns, Sharp-tails and some pheasants most years. I usually switch to 8's for quail and dove shooting - still 1 oz. loads.

This is a topic that provokes some debate, but it just isn't that important becuase the differences are really not significant..

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:56 am

DonF wrote:
Ruffshooter wrote:
You sold it? OMG

I was young and I bent the barrel somehow.

Rick[/quote]

I have a mod 37 featherweight in 16ga. Saving it for my grandson.[/quote]

Don,Was I think that is what I had. It was 30 years ago.It was a pump gun and It had the round ribbed fore grip.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:10 am

Ruffshooter wrote:
DonF wrote:
Ruffshooter wrote:
You sold it? OMG
I was young and I bent the barrel somehow.
Rick

I have a mod 37 featherweight in 16ga. Saving it for my grandson.[/quote]

Don,Was I think that is what I had. It was 30 years ago.It was a pump gun and It had the round ribbed fore grip.[/quote]

Yes sir that is it, the old "corn cob" forend!

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:45 pm

Speaking of a corn cob foreend I have a "Coast to Coast" .410 pump gun that has the corncob on it, beats me who the heck made it but I always kind of guessed it was a winchester made for coast to coast.Single slide bar on the lefthand side.Perhaps you fellers have some insight?

highntight · Post by **highntight** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:56 am

20 Benelli Legacy for me. I have owned it about 8 years. It carries really well for me and i enjoy shooting it. I may give up a touch on a windy day when birds may flush further out. But, i know the gun pretty well and enjoy it. I don't own a ton of shotguns. I kind of enjoy just keeping it simple. Which gun am i going to take today? Oh yeah, the only one i ever take