Breeder Question

[gotpointers]

Wow that's a great looking langhaar you ended up getting!
I am amazed that dog ended up at a rescue. Here in the states there are only about 250 of them and i would like to think we keep good enough tabs on them to prevent that happening. As a breeder i would expect a buyer to let me know when they are having problems so i can make arrangements to get the dog proper attention. Not to mention a refund if its a fault of the breeders genetics.

[Cora's Shadow]

Wow that's a great looking langhaar you ended up getting!

Actually, she is not a Langhaar, but a German Longhaired Pointer. Just wanted to clarify. The dog has no ear tattoo and was not bred by anyone in the DL-GNA or affiliated with the German club in any way. DL-GNA does keep very close tabs on all of our club dogs and we also share information with other breeders in the club so additional pups don't get sold to folks who let their dog end up in a rescue or lied to a breeder to acquire a puppy.

[gotpointers]

The way i see it if you breed a black angus to a black angus you are going to have another black angus. I don't want to open that can of worms though. We've done fine this many years. Let's keep it that way.

[Jagerherzen]

Doing "fine" sounds like real progress. What is the breeding coefficients on your GLPs by the way? What are the hip x-ray results?

[gotpointers]

Actually which of my langhaars are you refering to?

[Jagerherzen]

Independent or not, there are ethical breeders and unethical breeders. This thread began because a buyer was taken advantage of by an unethical breeder, which is unfortunate. Sometimes buyers who are breeders are unethical too. Lying to get a pup is unethical. Not x-raying both the breeding female and breeding male is an indiscriminate breeding practice. It is one thing for the buyer to "beware". As breeders it is important to maintain a standard of integrity. Some it seems, have none.

[gotpointers]

You are throwing out a lot of accusations. Which seems to be common practice for you after a search of your history. I Don't know what story you've got but i am looking at a person who's pissed that I've got the same langharrs that you may have at a third of the asking price of the other breeders.

[ezzy333]

Independent or not, there are ethical breeders and unethical breeders. This thread began because a buyer was taken advantage of by an unethical breeder, which is unfortunate. Sometimes buyers who are breeders are unethical too. Lying to get a pup is unethical. Not x-raying both the breeding female and breeding male is an indiscriminate breeding practice. It is one thing for the buyer to "beware". As breeders it is important to maintain a standard of integrity. Some it seems, have none.

You are probably right but thank heaven they are few and far between. Most people are still honest. Not quite sure how that lying thing enters into it though.

Ezzy

[Jagerherzen]

You are throwing out a lot of accusations. Which seems to be common practice for you after a search of your history. I Don't know what story you've got but i am looking at a person who's pissed that I've got the same langharrs that you may have at a third of the asking price of the other breeders.

Actually you have ONE langhaar , (the rest are GLPs) and outside of that we do not come close to having the same dogs. I know exactly how you acquired the one DL you do have, and you are sensitive to my statements for a reason and not because I am the one who is pissed. It really doesn't matter "what story I got". For any prospective buyer it is reasonable to expect a straight answer to the the legitimate questions - What are the breeding coefficients of the puppies you have put on the ground? Have you x-rayed any of the hips of any of the dogs you breed or the resulting offspring? If so through what system and what were the results?

[Munster]

The way i see it if you breed a black angus to a black angus you are going to have another black angus. I don't want to open that can of worms though. We've done fine this many years. Let's keep it that way.

BIG can of worms. I know DD owners are sensitive about it. DK folks take it in stride, not sure about the DL folks, but I am figuring it out! Although my keen Spidey senses detect something else going on here!

I am pretty sure that when the big SM/KM divide comes and AKC gets ahold of the SM's, I will be VERY touchy about my KM being called an SM. Time will tell.

I am pretty sure that the Black Angus from the reputable breeder that makes sure all the proper tests etc. are done, Researches which other Black Angus to breed with that will produce the finest meats, and picks the finest resteraunts to send it to, may cost a ittle more, but will taste the best!

[nikegundog]

When you by Black Angus meat at the store all it means is it came from a black cow, doesn't even have to be part Angus.

[Cajun Casey]

When you by Black Angus meat at the store all it means is it came from a black cow, doesn't even have to be part Angus.

Not correct with respect to CAB.

[ezzy333]

When you by Black Angus meat at the store all it means is it came from a black cow, doesn't even have to be part Angus.

Not correct with respect to CAB.

Black Angus is a brand and not where the meat comes from. Not all Angus are black and most are crossed with other breeds anymore.

Ezzy

[nikegundog]

When you by Black Angus meat at the store all it means is it came from a black cow, doesn't even have to be part Angus.

Not correct with respect to CAB.

With respect to CAB the cow is SUPPOSE to be 50% angus. If it is only 10% and is black, you can bet it is going to the market as CAB.

[jcbuttry8]

It's funny back in Oklahoma everybody served corn fed angus. That was what everybody had. When I moved to NJ, they wanted $20 a steak for "Corn fed Black Angus" beef. The first store I visited, the guy behind the counter didn't know how to respond when i asked for grazed holstein or hereford instead. Didn't mind a cheaper steak at the time.


Joe

[ezzy333]

It's funny back in Oklahoma everybody served corn fed angus. That was what everybody had. When I moved to NJ, they wanted $20 a steak for "Corn fed Black Angus" beef. The first store I visited, the guy behind the counter didn't know how to respond when i asked for grazed holstein or hereford instead. Didn't mind a cheaper steak at the time.


Joe

You can't tell the difference in the meat from the different breeds. That has been proven many many times. I always sold the cattle when they were choice but if you fed to prime grade they always went east normally to the Boston area.

Ezzy

[gotpointers]

Ezzy and Nike you have been around a very long time and I would love to have your unbiased opinion here.
I have a female out of two vdh registered deutsch langharrs. They claim my female is a german longhair which according to them is an entirely diffrent breed. I pulled this from the FAQ on their websites.

Sort of like what's going on with the kruzhaar shorthair debate that's already been beat to death here on this fourm. Other than the fact my females parents are littermates to many of their clubs members breeding stock.

Ezzy the lieing accusation from jagerheizen comes out of my buying a male without them knowing that i already had a female. I was never asked, told or even discussed possible breeding plans for the male.

They also will not post pedigrees for the reason that a potential buyer will realize that they are paying triple for the same lines.
I am sure they will come up with another plan to try to justify their price diffrence between the same dogs. I am wondering also if this entire "breeder question" subject was not brought up to take out another independent breeder in canada.

[nikegundog]

gotpointers,
I presently own a springer, both his parents were purebreds, I have yet to send in his paperwork however I believe he will still be a springer regardless if I do or not.

[adogslife]

It's simple:
those not adhereing to the German breeding standards and produce pets have GLPs.
Those willing to invest time, money, sell to hunting/testing homes and breed within the system have DLs.

It is not difficult to understand that unless a dog is tested and bred according to strict standards
that dog does not have breeding rights in the German breed books, no breeding rights, no registry,no registry that dog is refered to with a different name so others will recognize those adhereing to the standard and those not. Anyone not adhereing to the standards and call their dogs,DL,DK,DD,etc are doing so as a marketing ploy only.
Has nothing to do with an individual dog's ability.
What is bred for is what is produce.

[TVW]

I am wondering also if this entire "breeder question" subject was not brought up to take out another independent breeder in canada.

I assure you that this question was NOT brought up to take out any breeder regardless of their location. The intent of this particular thread was to share my experience with a breeder and ask a more knowledgeable audience if my experience warranted requesting my deposit back. That question has been answered sufficiently.

The thread, albeit interesting to follow, has now migrated into topics way off my original question and to which I have no insights or comments.

I do not know the history and various relationships of DL/GLP breeders in NA and have no "beef" with anyone except the breeder with whom I've been dealing. Just to throw in a little Black Angus humour....

[jcbuttry8]

It's funny back in Oklahoma everybody served corn fed angus. That was what everybody had. When I moved to NJ, they wanted $20 a steak for "Corn fed Black Angus" beef. The first store I visited, the guy behind the counter didn't know how to respond when i asked for grazed holstein or hereford instead. Didn't mind a cheaper steak at the time.


Joe

You can't tell the difference in the meat from the different breeds. That has been proven many many times. I always sold the cattle when they were choice but if you fed to prime grade they always went east normally to the Boston area.

Ezzy

Yeah, we know that, but good luck getting that point across out here.

[Munster]

It's simple:
those not adhereing to the German breeding standards and produce pets have GLPs.
Those willing to invest time, money, sell to hunting/testing homes and breed within the system have DLs.

It is not difficult to understand that unless a dog is tested and bred according to strict standards
that dog does not have breeding rights in the German breed books, no breeding rights, no registry,no registry that dog is refered to with a different name so others will recognize those adhereing to the standard and those not. Anyone not adhereing to the standards and call their dogs,DL,DK,DD,etc are doing so as a marketing ploy only.
Has nothing to do with an individual dog's ability.
What is bred for is what is produce.

Pretty well put as far as I am concerned.

It is pretty well obvious that the OP wasnt out to target an independant breeder.

OP, very nice looking dog. As for the Boykin/lab mix comment. You will get used to hearing stuff like that,Although I know nothing was ment by it, I still get comments like that about my munsters. They supposedly look like a Brit/Springer mix to most people. Most times I will just agree with them now. One guy called them a GSP one day and I just said, yup, they are nice looking shorthairs arent they!

[Cora's Shadow]

ADogsLife: Excellent post. Thank you for chiming in.

Gotpointers: Here is your fact-check:
You bought 2 female GLPs from a guy who accidentally bred 2 dogs that he had never tested or hunted with. Both of his dogs were Deutsch Langhaars bred by one breeder. And then, you went to the breeder who originally produced those 2 unproven dogs and asked to buy an adult male from them. After being told no, you asked to buy a male puppy from them. You told them that you had never seen a longhair before and that you had no intention of breeding. You also said that you would test the dog. And before the male pup was a year old, you were breeding him to one or both of the females you had without any sort of testing or health clearances. On the phone with me, you admitted that you lied to the breeders in order to acquire the male because you had the intention of breeding him to your females. I implored you not to as the dogs were all very closely related and you would be line-breeding back to a dog that produced pups with allergies. I emailed you a copy of what the pedigree would look like. You ignored me and continued breeding the dogs over and over again anyways. And now, every 6 months or so, I get an email from one of your puppy buyers asking me to help them place their “rescue” dog.

So yes, your dogs are not far removed from DL lines, but they are still unproven and therefore not a part of the breed or the breed club. And frankly, your pups would never be allowed into the breed even if you had tested the parents because your inbreeding coefficients are ridiculously high.

So although you clearly can't see it, I hope anyone else can see why it really rubs anyone in DL-GNA the wrong way when you plaster stuff all over your website or make posts on this forum to try to make it seem like you are part of the group and a caretaker of the breed. We do not wish to be affiliated with you in any way. It is no secret that you have no intention of ever following the hunt testing, health clearances, and breeding regulations of DL-GNA. I don't have a problem with some random puppy buyer or someone else outside the breed not understanding the difference between DLs and GLPs and interchanging the names. But I do have a huge problem with someone who knows exactly what the differences are and purposely calls his dogs the wrong name in an effort to sell puppies. Any mention of Deutsch Langhaars out of you is nothing but a marketing ploy...especially since you spell the name as "Deutsch Langharrs" on your website.

They also will not post pedigrees

This is an incorrect accusation. There is an online pedigree program for the breed that anyone can use to look up any pedigree they would like. But since you have just been breeding the only 2 females you could get to the only male you could get, I’ll bet you haven’t spent the time to find the pedigree program. Also, the sires and dams of all of all DL-GNA breeding dogs are listed right there on the breeding dog pages for anyone that cares to look. Perhaps they just don’t notice that your dogs are related since you have so many misspelled names on your website (you proclaim you have grandpups of Alf vorn Lonsstien...whose real name is actually Alf vom Illertal). And by the way, none of our dogs are registered with the VDH…they are registered with the Deutsch Langhaar Verband. If you were more than a pretender, you would know that.

Tell you what, I have an idea for your next business move. Why don’t you buy a bunch of German Wirehaired Pointers, breed them a bunch, and then advertise the puppies as Deutsch Drahthaars? Or maybe you could buy a bunch of English Setters but advertise them as Llewllin Setters.

[gotpointers]

Courtney, my buyers have never contacted me with a problem of any kind. If they did i would take care of it. I have had a buyer fly in from denver with his daughter, rent a hotel and a car just to pick a pup. Certainly more expensive than buying one from the family who is half the membership of your new club. I do say new club not the one that was shunned at the time.
As far as spelling i don't do the website i simply e mail what i want posted to my site manager.
Inbreeding or line breeding, people jump all over tighter bred dogs all the time. All good as long as there is nothing negative coming out. As far as allergies my dogs show no signs.
I do make it known i don't test with judges. I don't need to since i spend huge amounts of time hunting. I do it for me. I could care less if they sold just means less play money. It hasnt been about monetary gains, i flat out like dogs. And i will have them no matter what. I make money on my rentals and my well paying job.
I never bred one of the females and put her off to a pet home due to her qualities i did not like. I get lots of requests for solid liver dogs and could have still bred and sold her pups to waiting buyers.
If illertal kennels would not sell me an adult why would they sell me a pup? You also had a lot of negative things to say about them on the phone. My concern was that they did not have a bird on site.
I was already bored of the breed and i put rascal up for sale here months ago. That would have stopped my breeding of these langhaars. Nobody bought him and my females pregnant and i have had more contacts from buyers than ever before since you started this.
If i didn't care about the breed i would have sold them to anyone, not just the hunting homes that i did. The pet market is a whole lot bigger than the hunting market. Ads are cheaper in dog fancy magazine and they have many times the distribution rates. Than the 275.00 i paid to gundog magazine.
I could easily register all of these dogs through many diffrent breed registries. I could easily rack up titles. But that would take time away from my hunting and training. Had these bird dogs all have been an investment to make money. I would have gone to a different breed a long time ago.
I invite you to produce a name of a buyer who's unhappy with my dogs.

[DogNewbie]

Courtney, my buyers have never contacted me with a problem of any kind. If they did i would take care of it. I have had a buyer fly in from denver with his daughter, rent a hotel and a car just to pick a pup. Certainly more expensive than buying one from the family who is half the membership of your new club. I do say new club not the one that was shunned at the time.
As far as spelling i don't do the website i simply e mail what i want posted to my site manager.
Inbreeding or line breeding, people jump all over tighter bred dogs all the time. All good as long as there is nothing negative coming out. As far as allergies my dogs show no signs.
I do make it known i don't test with judges. I don't need to since i spend huge amounts of time hunting. I do it for me. I could care less if they sold just means less play money. It hasnt been about monetary gains, i flat out like dogs. And i will have them no matter what. I make money on my rentals and my well paying job.
I never bred one of the females and put her off to a pet home due to her qualities i did not like. I get lots of requests for solid liver dogs and could have still bred and sold her pups to waiting buyers.
If illertal kennels would not sell me an adult why would they sell me a pup? You also had a lot of negative things to say about them on the phone. My concern was that they did not have a bird on site.
I was already bored of the breed and i put rascal up for sale here months ago. That would have stopped my breeding of these langhaars. Nobody bought him and my females pregnant and i have had more contacts from buyers than ever before since you started this.
If i didn't care about the breed i would have sold them to anyone, not just the hunting homes that i did. The pet market is a whole lot bigger than the hunting market. Ads are cheaper in dog fancy magazine and they have many times the distribution rates. Than the 275.00 i paid to gundog magazine.
I could easily register all of these dogs through many diffrent breed registries. I could easily rack up titles. But that would take time away from my hunting and training. Had these bird dogs all have been an investment to make money. I would have gone to a different breed a long time ago.
I invite you to produce a name of a buyer who's unhappy with my dogs.

Well by your description it sounds like you are not in fact breeding DL's but GLPS. I think that's the issue she has with your marketing strategy. The DL breeding regulations state the sire and dam must meet certain test and health requirements to be eligible for breeding. Pups that come from DL dogs that did not meet the below requirements cannot be DL.

• Pass a VJP (or equivalent JGHV performance test)
• Pass a HZP (or equivalent JGHV performance test)
• Rate at least a G in all 3 categories of type, conformation, and coat
• Hip x-ray rating of A, B, or C
• Issued a Hartenachweis Certificate according to JGHV regulations
• Marked loud according to JGHV rules and regulations / Issued a Loud Certificate

[ultracarry]

Wow this thread went to hair pulling and slapping !

[Jagerherzen]

Please, do keep backpedaling. These excuses are very transparent. :roll: Instead of admitting you lied, you blame the breeder family who makes up less than 1% of DL-GNA membership, for buying into it and selling you a pup in the first place? And you blame your "website manager" for spelling errors? Whose fault is that?
You don't have time to get health clearances like hip x-rays on your dogs?
I am sure there are those that are thrilled to have a dog. But I am willing to bet they are few and far between or you wouldn't be selling your dogs as "a lot" for $1000 every so often on gundogbreeders directory. This has happened more than once and it included your unproven stud dog Fritz vom Illertal a time or two. So yes, it isn't a leap that you thought you would make a quick buck off a rare breed and it hasn't worked out so well. Despite your claims.

[gotpointers]

If he wasn't proven where did the pups come from. I don't know who your web manager is but they spelled franz wrong.
You are the one not making sense and has the history of scuffles on here. If you didn't know how i found out click on your profile then click on posts. Its sort of like a checking your history when you get caught speeding and you lie about it your historys there and so is mine.
Its quite entertaining you and courtney bashing each other.
Now you come and try to bash me as a team. Reminds me of the comic books. Where the villans combine forces to go after the squeaky clean superhero.
You were the one who brought up integrity as breeders. Where is it now? How much more are you going to concoct?

[DogNewbie]

If he wasn't proven where did the pups come from.

I'm not following this. Would you please explain further? Thanks!

[Cora's Shadow]

gotpointers,

I can't remember the name of owner of the last one of your pups that we were asked to place. I didn't save her email and the Craigslist ad has been deleted but it used to be here http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/for/2541782102.html. It was a female GLP in Albuquerque listed for $20.00 in August 2011. By the time I emailed the owner back, she had found a new home for the dog.

I could easily register all of these dogs through many diffrent breed registries.

I suppose you could find some organization that would register your dogs. There are so many random registries out there now. But the main thing we are telling you is that they will not be called Deutsch Langhaars in any registry that you can find to accept them. Register them anywhere else in the United States and they will be German Longhaired Pointers so you might as well be honest and advertise them as such.

Not sure why you are trying to bash the membership of DL-GNA since you are clearly trying to ride on our coattails. The family you are referring to is currently only 3 members out of 60+. And they have done more for the breed in the past 10 years than anyone else in North America has done in the past 50 years.

Clearly, you are going to do what you want to do without any regard for the overall health of the breed. Its a shame that there are shady breeders out there...but its also a shame that those of us who really care about our dogs and put in the time to prove their worth in front of unbiased parties as well as hunting also have to watch out for shady puppy buyers.

[ezzy333]

I think maybe it is time for everyone to take a step back and think before you post. Calling people unethical because they don't agree with you is getting a little out of line. We all understand what the breed is and also understand that you can call them what you want. Also different registries call them by different names. This is not unique to this breed as it happens in many others also. But it is hard to argue that a spade is not a spade when you look at it but you are welcome to call it a shovel if you want.

Guess I am lost wondering what difference it makes or why anyone would argue over what you want to call your dog. What should be important is you each have what you want and call them whatever you want.

Sounds like it is time to end the bickering on this one as no one is saying anything new but just the same thing over and over. Gets tiresome.

Ezzy