Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:40 pm

Joe correct if I'm wrong but didn't Havoc have NGSPA placements & wins before the nationals?? I know he had a couple AKC placements before the Q reg.but I think he ran mostly NGSPA before that.

Middlecreek · Post by **Middlecreek** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:54 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:It's not about breed. It's about correct parentage. Anyone have a pedigree on Direct Deposit?

Really?..... If we had a pedigree, there would be no issue. If it's not correct it's just a list of names not a pedigree....

Sorry, couldn't resist....

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:15 pm

Middlecreek wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:It's not about breed. It's about correct parentage. Anyone have a pedigree on Direct Deposit?
Really?..... If we had a pedigree, there would be no issue. If it's not correct it's just a list of names not a pedigree....

Sorry, couldn't resist....

That dog doesn't have a Q. Just curious as to his lineage and can't look it up now.

Middlecreek · Post by **Middlecreek** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:21 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
Middlecreek wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:It's not about breed. It's about correct parentage. Anyone have a pedigree on Direct Deposit?
Really?..... If we had a pedigree, there would be no issue. If it's not correct it's just a list of names not a pedigree....

Sorry, couldn't resist....
That dog doesn't have a Q. Just curious as to his lineage and can't look it up now.

That dog(Direct Deposit) does have a "Q", thats the issue???

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:42 pm

My database is old. I will refresh it when I am able and look again.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:56 pm

Middlecreek wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:It's not about breed. It's about correct parentage. Anyone have a pedigree on Direct Deposit?
Really?..... If we had a pedigree, there would be no issue. If it's not correct it's just a list of names not a pedigree....

Sorry, couldn't resist....

Cajun Casey wrote:
That dog doesn't have a Q. Just curious as to his lineage and can't look it up now.

Middlecreek wrote:
That dog(Direct Deposit) does have a "Q", thats the issue???

Yes just looked it up on AKC

Direct Deposit QS00141101

ddshine · Post by **ddshine** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:09 pm

Before people get on here and start chiming off about things they have no clue on they need to start doing their homework....Yes someone from ohio once again dropped the bomb one of the classiest people involved in field trials, Jim and Kathleen Yates. Thanks t. This dog Havoc is a Great GSP. He himself has obtained 5 national titles ( 1, National, 3 National AM SD, and 1 National SD). Dogs in his pedgriee are among the best of the best of GSP's. Havoc is the Fifth or sixth dog in his pedigree to win MULTIPLE NATIONAL TITLES. He is not some crossbred. He is a GSP no doubt. This has absolutely nothing to do with havoc himself but most people don't care to know that because now they don't have top compete against him and their pig can now win. Havoc is also almost 9 yrs old. So the dog runs in FT's for another six months, a year, come on. Who cares. If you all cared about your bloodlines and stuff of that nature go after the puppy mills, dont go after a guy who for the last 30+ years has dedicated A LOT OF TIME, EFFORT, MONEY, AND WORKED HIS "bleep" FOR EVERY BREED OF FIELD TRIAL DOGS. Not only has Mr. Yates been very successful at this game with dog after dog, he is by far given back to this sport in far more then most. Thanks Joe for standing up for what you know is right. These guys that bitch and complain about not being successful or about someone cheating to win, is BS

TRAIN MY FRIENDS DON'T COMPLAIN

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:17 pm

Isn't it Dr. Yates?

I thint that resolution should be the goal and have to say if people think this is a rare event, they haven't been paying attention to AKC since the FUS DNA requirements were established.

ddshine · Post by **ddshine** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:42 pm

The resolution is not throwing these dogs or their offspring out the database. The Q simply allows it to recognizable so that people are informed. No one is saying that anyone ever has to breed to these dogs at all. The AKC has not shoved the dogs down anyone throats. I just think its funny that this has been in effect for over a year now. But until one of these Q dogs starts doing a little winning the "bleep" hits the fan...Thanks t. from o

they need to state that on from this date forward all dogs that are bred, obtain a CH,FC,AFC,JH,MH, or SH or whatever title they obtained needs to have DNA on file. the solution is not throwing more dogs out of an already dying sport

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:44 pm

Casey don't you have a study to complete on the wild bird population in OK ... instead you Google someone to find a title to go in front of their name.. please do us a favor and complete the study as we really care. What we don't care about is how much time you spend reading the AKC website.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:59 pm

ddshine wrote:The resolution is not throwing these dogs or their offspring out the database. The Q simply allows it to recognizable so that people are informed. No one is saying that anyone ever has to breed to these dogs at all. The AKC has not shoved the dogs down anyone throats. I just think its funny that this has been in effect for over a year now. But until one of these Q dogs starts doing a little winning the "bleep" hits the fan...Thanks t. from o

they need to state that on from this date forward all dogs that are bred, obtain a CH,FC,AFC,JH,MH, or SH or whatever title they obtained needs to have DNA on file. the solution is not throwing more dogs out of an already dying sport

Good observations and, quite honestly, maybe the GSPCA needs to consider a grant to develop a searchable, matchable DNA database and be proactive. If geneticists can determine that forty percent of men in northern Eurasia are descended from Genghis Khan, surely they can sort out a few dogs.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:07 pm

ultracarry wrote:Casey don't you have a study to complete on the wild bird population in OK ... instead you Google someone to find a title to go in front of their name.. please do us a favor and complete the study as we really care. What we don't care about is how much time you spend reading the AKC website.

No, actually, that starts in September, but since you don't know anything about wild birds, I can excuse your ignorance on the subject.

msrkennels · Post by **msrkennels** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:12 pm

This just allows the registry to mean zilch we instated dna to elliminate this from happening the Q registration was just away to get around this if Af would of known this no dog would be allowed to run with this type of registration . I personally ain't scared to run against him he is a nice dog shame you can't prove he's out what they say he's out of but I can assure he's not out that as you refer DIRECT'S RUBBERBAND MAN HE WAS A PIG .

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:18 pm

ddshine wrote:The resolution is not throwing these dogs or their offspring out the database. The Q simply allows it to recognizable so that people are informed. No one is saying that anyone ever has to breed to these dogs at all. The AKC has not shoved the dogs down anyone throats. I just think its funny that this has been in effect for over a year now. But until one of these Q dogs starts doing a little winning the "bleep" hits the fan...Thanks t. from o

they need to state that on from this date forward all dogs that are bred, obtain a CH,FC,AFC,JH,MH, or SH or whatever title they obtained needs to have DNA on file. the solution is not throwing more dogs out of an already dying sport

And as this why this whole post was started "Conditional Registration is an AKC thing only it is AKC that created and has the "Special ED Pedigree's" So if a person has a dog an AKC Special Ed registration ie "Q" PAL ILP Limited..then Stick to AKC events which accept those AKC registration and pedigrees...FDSB and some other registries do not welcome nor accept the AKC Special Ed Registrations and will strip titles and strike such dogs and future generations from such dogs from their records.

If you need to hear it for yourself here is the number for FDSB 312-663-9797 ask for Bernie

ddshine · Post by **ddshine** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:22 pm

SPECIAL ED PEDIGREE's???? the dog mentioned here has ran in two AKC trials in his 9 yr career. Those National titles he has on him and in his pedigree all are AF.

ddshine · Post by **ddshine** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:25 pm

i dont think the AF should worry what the AKC does anyways. The two should never be mixed at all

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:26 pm

ddshine wrote:Before people get on here and start chiming off about things they have no clue on they need to start doing their homework....Yes someone from ohio once again dropped the bomb one of the classiest people involved in field trials, Jim and Kathleen Yates. Thanks t. This dog Havoc is a Great GSP. He himself has obtained 5 national titles ( 1, National, 3 National AM SD, and 1 National SD). Dogs in his pedgriee are among the best of the best of GSP's. Havoc is the Fifth or sixth dog in his pedigree to win MULTIPLE NATIONAL TITLES. He is not some crossbred. He is a GSP no doubt. This has absolutely nothing to do with havoc himself but most people don't care to know that because now they don't have top compete against him and their pig can now win. Havoc is also almost 9 yrs old. So the dog runs in FT's for another six months, a year, come on. Who cares. If you all cared about your bloodlines and stuff of that nature go after the puppy mills, dont go after a guy who for the last 30+ years has dedicated A LOT OF TIME, EFFORT, MONEY, AND WORKED HIS "bleep" FOR EVERY BREED OF FIELD TRIAL DOGS. Not only has Mr. Yates been very successful at this game with dog after dog, he is by far given back to this sport in far more then most. Thanks Joe for standing up for what you know is right. These guys that bitch and complain about not being successful or about someone cheating to win, is BS

TRAIN MY FRIENDS DON'T COMPLAIN

Just because he's not crossbred doesn't make it right. Miller's Online would agree with that. Im pretty sure he was a pointer. But that wasnt the point.

raven34 · Post by **raven34** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:38 pm

Does someone need another time-out> :roll:

Lets keep this going without getting personal...some info could come out of it....

msrkennels · Post by **msrkennels** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:39 pm

So what your saying is AKC DNA doesn't match but the AF does something sounds funny.

raven34 · Post by **raven34** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:51 pm

Ultra how are you doing with training your own dog? Oh i forgot you dont have TIME....but you are on this computer quite often...Lets get past your ego OK. and excuses. Got a nice dog there.. congrats on your FC....Some of us to have sportsmanship...But like I said sometimes it pays to listen and LEARN.......

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:56 pm

ddshine wrote:SPECIAL ED PEDIGREE's???? the dog mentioned here has ran in two AKC trials in his 9 yr career. Those National titles he has on him and in his pedigree all are AF.

Bottom line the dog has a "Q" registration "Conditional" an AKC made up Special Ed Reg and Ped

Facts are FDSB doesn't accept that in their database..the dog has a hole in the pedigree and is no longer accepted in FDSB database nor any dog that has this "Q" dog in it's background.....

and Not my fault...I didn't make up the rules if you have a problem with FDSB striking the dogs from their records over the AKC "Q" I gave the Number to FDSB in my previous post try and take it up with them...

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:57 pm

raven34 wrote:Ultra how are you doing with training your own dog? Oh i forgot you dont have TIME....but you are on this computer quite often...Lets get past your ego OK. and excuses. Got a nice dog there.. congrats on your FC....Some of us to have sportsmanship...But like I said sometimes it pays to listen and LEARN.......

Training is good.. as I only have time for her four days a week the dog is at the trainers the other 3 . Have been training her the whole time, enlisted the expertise of a pro as to not damage the dog and learn. Sportsman ship is good that's why the AKC just out a Q in instead of dropping said dogs from competing .

raven34 · Post by **raven34** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:01 pm

:roll: /.....lol...Lets learn something now boys and girls....

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:36 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
Middlecreek wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:It's not about breed. It's about correct parentage. Anyone have a pedigree on Direct Deposit?
Really?..... If we had a pedigree, there would be no issue. If it's not correct it's just a list of names not a pedigree....

Sorry, couldn't resist....

Cajun Casey wrote:
That dog doesn't have a Q. Just curious as to his lineage and can't look it up now.

Middlecreek wrote:
That dog(Direct Deposit) does have a "Q", thats the issue???
Yes just looked it up on AKC

Direct Deposit QS00141101

Interesting. This is what mine pulls up.

AKC No.: SN79921305
Name: Direct Deposit
Sex: Male
Breed: Pointer (German Shorthaired)
Variety:
Color: White & Liver

Markings: Patched
Birth Date: 01/05/2001

Medical Screens

There are no medical screens available for this dog.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:43 pm

AKC No.: QS00141101
Name: Direct Deposit
Sex: Male
Breed: Pointer (German Shorthaired)
Variety:
Color: Liver & White

Markings: Patched
Birth Date: 01/05/2001

and this is what I come up with

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:33 am

I agree guys, its a bunch of crap. But what is the AF waiting for? Why is this dog or ANY Q dog able to compete. Id be pissed if my dog dog RU Ch to one of these dogs that has no reason running. If the field/ngspa has a rule why not enforce it. If I were running a club that was hosting a trial/championship id either find out the registered # first or if someone runs a dog with a Q and places there should be some sort of penlty. JMO. With all the technolgy today. There is ZERO reason for this crap to happen.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:57 am

ElhewPointer wrote:I agree guys, its a bunch of crap. But what is the AF waiting for? Why is this dog or ANY Q dog able to compete. Id be pissed if my dog dog RU Ch to one of these dogs that has no reason running. If the field/ngspa has a rule why not enforce it. If I were running a club that was hosting a trial/championship id either find out the registered # first or if someone runs a dog with a Q and places there should be some sort of penlty. JMO. With all the technolgy today. There is ZERO reason for this crap to happen.

There are quite a few trials that are dual sanctioned

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:24 am

kninebirddog wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote:I agree guys, its a bunch of crap. But what is the AF waiting for? Why is this dog or ANY Q dog able to compete. Id be pissed if my dog dog RU Ch to one of these dogs that has no reason running. If the field/ngspa has a rule why not enforce it. If I were running a club that was hosting a trial/championship id either find out the registered # first or if someone runs a dog with a Q and places there should be some sort of penlty. JMO. With all the technolgy today. There is ZERO reason for this crap to happen.
There are quite a few trials that are dual sanctioned

Too bad.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:32 am

ElhewPointer wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote:I agree guys, its a bunch of crap. But what is the AF waiting for? Why is this dog or ANY Q dog able to compete. Id be pissed if my dog dog RU Ch to one of these dogs that has no reason running. If the field/ngspa has a rule why not enforce it. If I were running a club that was hosting a trial/championship id either find out the registered # first or if someone runs a dog with a Q and places there should be some sort of penlty. JMO. With all the technolgy today. There is ZERO reason for this crap to happen.
There are quite a few trials that are dual sanctioned
Too bad.

The GSP club is trying to address the issue http://www.gspca.org/General/News/QRegistration.htm

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:46 am

The AKC doesn't give a sh!t about field trials. They want one thing, money. The last thing they'd want is less dogs being able to compete(pay) /d less dogs not being able to breed(more puppys registered).

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:54 am

ElhewPointer wrote:The AKC doesn't give a sh!t about field trials. They want one thing, money. The last thing they'd want is less dogs being able to compete(pay) /d less dogs not being able to breed(more puppys registered).

Yep

guess we can say Integrity doesn't pay

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:57 am

This Conditional is where a parent could not be found so AKC decided instead of dumping the dog and all the puppies out of the data base they drop them to Conditional Then for the next 3 generations any dogs bred or bred to a Conditional will have to have DNA Prior to breeding and all pups DNA'd once there is an establish 3 generations again then the pups go back to being Fully registered.

So is this tacit approval for a GSP breeder to use a Pointer and re-enter the AKC registry 3 generations later (5-6 years)? a procedure for legal cross breeding? Kind of takes control away from the breed clubs in my mind....although they are just social organizations now.

solon · Post by **solon** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:11 am

If you are interested in improving dogs of various breeds, then this emphasis on eugenics and breed purity by the registries is a big mistake IMO and I am not alone in this view. From the point of view of geneticists, breeds were never pure, they are all members of one species, and a current trend to use DNA to enforce purity has negative consequences. The Red Setter would have never happened, if the AKC hadn't made allowances for cross breeding of the Irish Setter to English setters and a return to type by back crossing. The AF accepted the results. What does it actually accomplish to make the Llewelyn setter pure by DNA testing? Does it maintain or return the Llewelyn to its early 20th century glory in field trials? I see no evidence of this.

This article matches my sentiments on the issue:

http://www.fosteraward.com/Essays%20fro ... n_Branches:__

Other sources:

http://www.netpets.com/dogs/reference/g ... ne%20Breed?

http://www.canine-genetics.com/Default.htm

My point is that for the betterment of the dogs and various breeds, the registries should make allowances for cross breeding and then a return to breed a possible pathway under their rules. This approach should not condone dishonesty and cheating by the breeders. Pedigrees should be accurate. Purchasers of pups or dogs should know what they are buying. The problem is with the registries. There are two kinds of misrepresentations being discussed. One is within breed and the other is cross breeding to a different breed. The latter does make it possible to move valuable new alleles into a breed that otherwise has a closed gene pool. Three generations of back crosses would seem to be adequate for a consistent return to type and the breed standard, which seems to be what you folks are describing for the AKC.

To know whether a better dog has been produced, the provisionally registered dogs have to be allowed to compete in performance tests. I know nothing about GSP genetics and the controversies about pointer blood introduced to the GSP breed. But if it results in better dogs, that are not different from the GSP by phenotype and that meet the breed standard, but their difference is only detectable by a DNA analysis, why should that be a bad thing?

Until now, the Small Munsterlander Club of North America would issue tracking numbers for pups produced by matings that were done by SMs that were not registered with the club. A dog with a tracking number could be issued a full pedigree, if it subsequently passed the criteria for breeding approval. This will all change presently, because the SMCNA is becoming a Landesgruppe of the German SM Club and the dogs will be issued FCI pedigrees. This will bring the SMs into the JGHV testing system. I suspect the tracking number route will be a thing of the past.

Genomic analysis has shown that modern humans from non African origins have been cross bred with Neanderthals, does this make them less human?

One would hope the registries would have policies that put the dogs first and their revenue streams second.

Solon

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:44 am

This Q registration thing affects all breeds in AKC. From Poodles to Pointers. Dogs with an unknown parent can be bred and the litter registered, they simply cannot be shown. Same was true in the trial venues until someone who bought a dog who ended up with a Q asked the question... Why am I being penalized because someone else before me might have been a crook?

When this was brought to the Performance dept. the question became.... Well, if the powers that be in AKC (and trust me, the Performance department is not included in that decision making process!) have decided that these dogs will be allowed to breed, and if the litters will be registered, then wouldn't it be better to test the Q dogs and know what they can do? Then people can make informed decisions whether to include a Q dog in their programs, or purchase a puppy from a Q litter based on their performances.

The Q tells you who they are and are not. Their performance record tells you what they did and can do. You have a choice, an informed choice.

I can't figure out if we are more offended because those dogs are actually allowed to be registered, or if we are just pissed that some of those dogs are whooping our butts. If you are mad that the Q dogs can be bred, then yelling at the Performance department is useless. You need to go higher, you need to address the actual Board of Directors. They are the people who hold the cards. They are the ones that need to hear from us!

If you don't care that they can be bred and registered, but just don't want to "play with them" then Performance should hear from you.

In fact, all correspondence to AKC pertaining to this should include the Board, CEO, your breed delegate....the entire gang!
Fuzz

ddshine · Post by **ddshine** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:44 am

msrkennels wrote:This just allows the registry to mean zilch we instated dna to elliminate this from happening the Q registration was just away to get around this if Af would of known this no dog would be allowed to run with this type of registration . I personally ain't scared to run against him he is a nice dog shame you can't prove he's out what they say he's out of but I can assure he's not out that as you refer DIRECT'S RUBBERBAND MAN HE WAS A PIG .

This does not make the registry worthless in any way. your dog, my dog, everydog is still what they are no matter what. The "q" registration is not for crossbreeding dogs or whatever. These dogs, I believe there are 38 GSP's total, were fully registered by the AKC, then because they did not start this DNA from a certain point forward and move forward things kind of went hay wire for these certain dogs. if they would have started this from a certain point and moved forward this wouldn't be happening. Now here is the thing would you rather the AKC just given these dogs full registration and you as outsiders would not know of any problems in their heritage???????? it would probably make the purist happy because they are still in denial about ever having anything wrong with their blood lines (certain people of the GSPCA). *******NEWS FLASH****** if you own a GSP guarantee that 95% of have had some cross breeding done in their heritage. Has this hurt the breed? I don't think so at all, We are playing a made up game with dogs and are trying to make the best GSP we can. The cross breeding that was done in the past has done far more good for the Every breed then has done harm...bottom line is throwing these dogs out is going to nothing at all, it is only going to hurt the field trial fraternity as a whole. So you don't like the Q dogs then dog breed to them and you wont have to worry about it. After a three generation (DNA'd) pedigree is developed they will return to the normal numbers. The program is set up to kill it self without everyone bi***chin and moaning about how this is going to ruin the breed, this compromises the stud book, etc. well this is no new thing, but now you are informed about whether or not to use a certain stud or buy a pup from a certain bitch. Not to call any other dogs out on this but who are the other dogs. Terry chandler told me that the only way they new about this was two dogs showed up on the top ten????? And HAVOC was not one of those, he ran in two AKC events this spring, lost em in one and won the other, not him then who??

Read some of those articles that were posted on here about genetics.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:16 pm

ddshine wrote: *******NEWS FLASH****** if you own a GSP guarantee that 95% of have had some cross breeding done in their heritage. Has this hurt the breed? I don't think so at all, We are playing a made up game with dogs and are trying to make the best GSP we can. The cross breeding that was done in the past has done far more good for the Every breed then has done harm.

It's the crossbreeding in the recent past that pisses people off. And then all you get is deny deny deny if people were doing it for the "betterment of the breed" why wouldnt it be on the up and up?

Maybe I have to little faith in my fellow man...

ddshine · Post by **ddshine** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:55 pm

Really who is crossbreeding nowadays most of these dogs problems probably are not recent problems and i would guess that most the dogs that originally were in question are all dead since the dna was started 10 years ago or so. Oh the cross breeding in the far past is OK but if someone does it now its bad?????

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:04 pm

ddshine wrote:Really who is crossbreeding nowadays most of these dogs problems probably are not recent problems and i would guess that most the dogs that originally were in question are all dead since the dna was started 10 years ago or so. Oh the cross breeding in the far past is OK but if someone does it now its bad?????

So you choose to believe that there are not registered "gsps" with an extraordinarily high % of pointer walking around today?

Pointer was used in the development of the breed, that is fine. Under the table cross breeding and registering the pups as pure breds at anytime is not okay with me.

DNA only proves parentage.

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:19 pm

Anybody have a pic of Havoc they can put up ? I've saw him in the AF he is a nice looking dog i think.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:29 pm

tn red wrote:Anybody have a pic of Havoc they can put up ? I've saw him in the AF he is a nice looking dog i think.

Check out Dan's (ddshine) web page, he is on the field trial dogs page third colum over. No doubt Havoc is a winner.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:32 pm

tn red wrote:Anybody have a pic of Havoc they can put up ? I've saw him in the AF he is a nice looking dog i think.

www.monkeyshinekennels.com

Go to Field Trial Dogs on the top menu and he's the bottom dog in the far right column.

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:36 pm

ACooper wrote:
ddshine wrote:Really who is crossbreeding nowadays most of these dogs problems probably are not recent problems and i would guess that most the dogs that originally were in question are all dead since the dna was started 10 years ago or so. Oh the cross breeding in the far past is OK but if someone does it now its bad?????

So you choose to believe that there are not registered "gsps" with an extraordinarily high % of pointer walking around today?

Pointer was used in the development of the breed, that is fine. Under the table cross breeding and registering the pups as pure breds at anytime is not okay with me.

DNA only proves parentage.

An old quote from the race horse world I believe it was Walter Merrick, Easy Jet's owner back in the late 60's early 70's when they started running quarter horses for big money at 440 yards for the FIRST $1,000,000.00 purses.

"the best quarter horses are 7/8's thoroughbred"

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:44 pm

Dan and Coop, you guys are missing the point. Someone with enough dimes can basically destroy field trials as a whole. Like I said you will be hard pressed to find any pointing breed that has NOT been cross bred including pointers. That is why the AKC needs to do away with the Q registration, but also acknowledge that it has been done and pick a date, grandfather everything before that date, permanently ban anyone and their dogs that cross breeds after that date. I personally don’t think they will do this because one of the people that is advising them does NOT have clean hands in this mater.

Very good Frank!

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:56 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:Dan and Coop, you guys are missing the point. Someone with enough dimes can basically destroy field trials as a whole. Like I said you will be hard pressed to find any pointing breed that has NOT been cross bred including pointers. That is why the AKC needs to do away with the Q registration, but also acknowledge that it has been done and pick a date, grandfather everything before that date, permanently ban anyone and their dogs that cross breeds after that date. I personally don’t think they will do this because one of the people that is advising them does NOT have clean hands in this mater.

Very good Frank!

I can't argue with that Joe, I don't care that it has been done, heck in many cases it probably needed to be done to get the trial dogs of today. I just hope with a growing DNA database and more requirements we will be able to eliminate problems like this in the future. I don't want to exclude a great dog from the gene pool because of a Q but I "bleep" sure would if it was proven the Q dog was a x bred, problem is with out proof its all speculation. It's just really a shame that it has come to this at all. But maybe the sacrifice of a few will benefit the many.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:00 pm

Sad part is AKC should read their own history

In 1923, AKC barred interbreed competition except in the Miscellaneous Class. Comprehensive new rules for Groups & Best In Show judging were adopted effective 1924. Under the new rules and judging procedures adopted at that time, all breeds (except for those in Miscellaneous Competition) were separated into five groups: Group 1 - Sporting Dogs, which included at that time all Hound breeds; Group 2 - Working Dogs; Group 3 - Terriers; Group 4 - Toy Breeds; and Group 5 - Non-Sporting Breeds. These Best of Breed winners in each group were then judged together to determine the best dog in that group and, finally, the five group winners met to decide the best dog in the show.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:17 pm

kninebirddog wrote:Sad part is AKC should read their own history

In 1923, AKC barred interbreed competition except in the Miscellaneous Class. Comprehensive new rules for Groups & Best In Show judging were adopted effective 1924. Under the new rules and judging procedures adopted at that time, all breeds (except for those in Miscellaneous Competition) were separated into five groups: Group 1 - Sporting Dogs, which included at that time all Hound breeds; Group 2 - Working Dogs; Group 3 - Terriers; Group 4 - Toy Breeds; and Group 5 - Non-Sporting Breeds. These Best of Breed winners in each group were then judged together to determine the best dog in that group and, finally, the five group winners met to decide the best dog in the show.

That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. That division was to break the breeds into smaller groups for the purpose of judging. Prior to that, dogs could be judged against dogs of different breeds and types without having first won BOB.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:15 pm

That is when they started to Barr the mix breeding Period.

This whole topic (which I started) was that those who have AKC special Peds need to stick to AKC events as other registries do not accept them. Simple as that

hi-tailyn · Post by **hi-tailyn** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:30 pm

Just want to agree with a couple posts. AKC is purely in it for the $$$$$$$$. Any way to get more dogs registered and participating in any venue which they receive $$$$ for, they will approve in their registry.

I'm easily confused on this point though. Havoak has been known to not be registered with AKC for years. But he has been registered with AF, and has competed and won many NGSPA CH's. I watched him run and defiantly win at Booneville this year. Why is it now not ok with his AF registration?? Now AF is the one withholding titles till DNA verification. Why is it different today, that it Was OK years ago? Now he can run in AKC trials which he couldn't before, and now he can't run in AF trials which he could up until recently. Only AKC and their "Q" rule can figure this one out.

Another one for AKC: An acquaintance had a litter of pups that were supposed to be from the currant NC years ago. DNA disproved the sire. This F & S team sold un reg. dogs to plantation for good money. The plantation wanted more if possible. This team took a female that I sold them and bred to a AKC RU-NC reg. DNA'ed Pointer (With solid liver head and white with patches) with the intent (What they told me) to selling to this plantation. One year later I saw in the running order in NE trial this pup out of my bitch that I sold them. They were reg. as GSP's.

I gave DNA info on BOTH dam(GSP) and sire (Pointer) to Performance and DNA Dept. at AKC.

They said they had to disprove the sire who was reg. first before they could go any further. Even though they had matching DNA file from the Pointer. Go Figure. :roll: :roll: I told them they would never see or find the reg. sire. All thoughs who do cross breeding know, those sires all seem to die just after they breed to these bitches.

AKC never said these pups were crosses. :roll: All this makes me really wonder how much AKC really can tell from our DNA tests. I even gave them DNA on one of the pups. Still no confirmation that they were out of the Pointer. I talked with head of DNA and they as far as they were concerned they were purebred GSP's. Still very frustrated with AKC, I then told them I had a female that was in heat at that time, and I was planning on breeding this pup to her. And that I absolutely know for a fact that the pup was a cross bred GSP and Pointer. They finally disqualified that litter.

But they still wouldn't do anything to the team who for the second time produced outcross litter and failed the DNA tests.

All AKC wants is their reg. litter $$$$$

Enough of my frustration with AKC. By the way. Never fear the Big dog with no teeth!!
Scott

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:02 pm

hi-tailyn wrote:Just want to agree with a couple posts. AKC is purely in it for the $$$$$$$$. Any way to get more dogs registered and participating in any venue which they receive $$$$ for, they will approve in their registry.

I'm easily confused on this point though. Havoak has been known to not be registered with AKC for years. But he has been registered with AF, and has competed and won many NGSPA CH's. I watched him run and defiantly win at Booneville this year. Why is it now not ok with his AF registration?? Now AF is the one withholding titles till DNA verification. Why is it different today, that it Was OK years ago? Now he can run in AKC trials which he couldn't before, and now he can't run in AF trials which he could up until recently. Only AKC and their "Q" rule can figure this one out.

Another one for AKC: An acquaintance had a litter of pups that were supposed to be from the currant NC years ago. DNA disproved the sire. This F & S team sold un reg. dogs to plantation for good money. The plantation wanted more if possible. This team took a female that I sold them and bred to a AKC RU-NC reg. DNA'ed Pointer (With solid liver head and white with patches) with the intent (What they told me) to selling to this plantation. One year later I saw in the running order in NE trial this pup out of my bitch that I sold them. They were reg. as GSP's.

I gave DNA info on BOTH dam(GSP) and sire (Pointer) to Performance and DNA Dept. at AKC.

They said they had to disprove the sire who was reg. first before they could go any further. Even though they had matching DNA file from the Pointer. Go Figure. :roll: :roll: I told them they would never see or find the reg. sire. All thoughs who do cross breeding know, those sires all seem to die just after they breed to these bitches.

AKC never said these pups were crosses. :roll: All this makes me really wonder how much AKC really can tell from our DNA tests. I even gave them DNA on one of the pups. Still no confirmation that they were out of the Pointer. I talked with head of DNA and they as far as they were concerned they were purebred GSP's. Still very frustrated with AKC, I then told them I had a female that was in heat at that time, and I was planning on breeding this pup to her. And that I absolutely know for a fact that the pup was a cross bred GSP and Pointer. They finally disqualified that litter.

But they still wouldn't do anything to the team who for the second time produced outcross litter and failed the DNA tests.

All AKC wants is their reg. litter $$$$$

Enough of my frustration with AKC. By the way. Never fear the Big dog with no teeth!!
Scott

The AKC does not have Runner Up Champions in its Nationals. They place first through fourth. Even so, in the eleven years that DNA has been required, there has never been a pointer in second place in any of the stakes, so I'm not sure I follow your story. Mind clarifying?

Crestonegsp · Post by **Crestonegsp** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:27 am

Bernie @ AF will accept your AKC DNA certificate so the Conditional Registration moves across to the FDSB also and is an issue here. If AF tells you you give me a DNA # from AKC and I don't care if it has a "Q" on it or not and I will record your wins. What would you do? I don't like to get beat in a FT but if your dog does a better job than mine I can accept that and I need to go back and work harder or smarter. Have pointers been breed into GSPs and other breeds? I have seen my share of Lemon GSPs, odd colored Weims, 1/2 white Viz and long legged Britts so sure they have. All I want is a level playing field and if I run my GSP I think it is only fair that all others entered in a NGSPA event are GSPs also. I have GSPs and not Pointers and that is the point here. We have a breed of dog that we like and that breed is beter than some other breeds and not as good as others. Are there many GSPs that can go win @ Ames, no, not really. So if someone has a dog that can not be proven to be from the parents and breed listed than that is an issue. If we are going to say it's ok to accept a DNA that can not be proven (why have it) than we do not need different breeds we might as well just leave all trials open to what ever you drop on the ground but if we want the breed of dogs we have and keep the current system we have there needs to be standards set and upheld.

I am not here to throw anyone or their dog under the bus but we need to have some control to keep the breed of dogs we have. Mr. Amatulli is correct, we need a date for all to be grandfathered in and move on because at this point it is what it is.