What would you do??

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:07 pm

Correct me if i'm wrong, but do we have a National Breed for the USA? as far as a hunting breed? If not, what would you cross to make an all around versitile dog as our National dog?

I would say, Lab, English Pointer, and German Shorthair.

gittrdonebritts · Post by **gittrdonebritts** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:48 pm

Before you go any further look at this it was brought up on the Forum some time ago all those breeds you stated were used to make this Dog

http://www.wesslpointer.com/index.html

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:53 pm

As much as I hate to admit it, the Chessie is an American breed that has some claim to a title such as that , I would think.

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:54 pm

Oh, yes can't forget about the chessie. But I was thinking of an "Upland" pointing dog. Nice dog's but, they sure do "put down" other pointing breeds don't they. Quoted from there site, "doesn't want to eat my birds or kill the family cat", thats just moronic!

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:00 pm

You won't have a clue what you will get unless you have something in mind and pick the pup that comes closes and then do away with the rest. After 7 generations of selective culling you should have a dog somewhat like what you want. But in reality crossing to get what you want just doesn't happen with out years of work.

Ezzy

Pryor Creek Okie · Post by **Pryor Creek Okie** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:12 pm

I saw an EP/Lab mix once. It was the gawd awful ugliest dog I've ever seen. It didn't look anything like those wesslpointers.

gittrdonebritts · Post by **gittrdonebritts** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:19 pm

Pryor Creek Okie wrote:I saw an EP/Lab mix once. It was the gawd awful ugliest dog I've ever seen. It didn't look anything like those wesslpointers.

He has been breeding them for more than a few Generations

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:23 pm

If you are looking for an American made, all around, do-it-all, versatile, it's been done.

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:48 pm

I don't want one, just saying. Besides the Chessie and that UGLY dog from Louisiana that was posted, it would be interesting.

The lab/ english pointer my father had was actually a very nice lookign dog. all black, small white diamond patch on her chest and a thin EP tail. She was probably the best bird dog I have ever seen. She was bred to my grandpa's 180lb black lab male (accidentally) and produced an all white pup (go figure). They turned out to be awesome bird dog's.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:08 pm

hmmm...

Nice lookin pups... wonder what the sticker price is on one??? I'd like to be on the market fer another dog next year... my wife wants another lab, but I would like a good fit for our EP... might be able to compromise...

every breed started somewhere... I'm Italian/Irish mix myself... two worst drinkin tempers in europe...

makes fer great reunions tho...

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:15 pm

She was bred to my grandpa's 180lb black lab male (accidentally) and produced an all white pup (go figure)

Just have to ask if this was a typo or not, I seen some big labs but? At 100 lbs over the standard,can you still call it a lab? I would cross a yellow lab with a black lab to make the National Breed.

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:00 pm

Nope, he was HUGE! Once a flat bed (empty) backed over his hips while he was sleeping, and good ol lucky buck. Got up and walked away. A couple years after that he was put down from arthritis. He was tough as nails though. From california, there are these really heavy bushes called berry vines (heavily thorned) if he knew a rooster was in there he would kinda back up and take a running leap into them just to either flush the bird or come out with it. The best lab I have ever seen. Trust me, he was a pure bred lab. If you know some of the history of labs, there are some very tall dogs. My grandfather would feed lucky a pork chop (cooked) every morning

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:58 am

Nice catch Cajun. The catahoula, state dog of my home state of Louisiana. Cow dogs in the west and hog and coon dogs in the south. Never seen or heard of them hunting birds though.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:02 am

tommyboy72 wrote:Nice catch Cajun. The catahoula, state dog of my home state of Louisiana. Cow dogs in the west and hog and coon dogs in the south. Never seen or heard of them hunting birds though.

They have been used as search and rescue dogs, so I don't think working either upland or waterfowl would be too much of a challenge.

http://www.donabney.com/

Don Abney authored a tracking/S&R guide and is well known for his working Cats.

smoothbean · Post by **smoothbean** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:28 pm

The Boykin Spaniel is an American breed. These dudes are great in the field as well as the water.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:42 pm

The "modern" GSP is about as american as you can get.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:35 pm

ACooper wrote:The "modern" GSP is about as american as you can get.

More American than the breeds that were developed here?

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:40 pm

displaced_texan wrote:
ACooper wrote:The "modern" GSP is about as american as you can get.
More American than the breeds that were developed here?

More? Nah just as yes!

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:51 pm

I agee to an extent. I'm saying We as American's should try and produce a pointing dog. obviously it would never be adopted as an "AKC" type, but would be fun to watch the development.

rkappes · Post by **rkappes** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:24 am

Hybrid Shorthair & Labrador Mix Hunting Dogs..........sticker price $1500. Uffda.

http://www.hybridretrievers.com/

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:47 am

ACooper wrote:
displaced_texan wrote:
ACooper wrote:The "modern" GSP is about as american as you can get.
More American than the breeds that were developed here?
More? Nah just as yes!

I'll buy that!

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:48 am

Ahumphers91a wrote:I agee to an extent. I'm saying We as American's should try and produce a pointing dog. obviously it would never be adopted as an "AKC" type, but would be fun to watch the development.

Why should we?

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:49 am

displaced_texan wrote:
Ahumphers91a wrote:I agee to an extent. I'm saying We as American's should try and produce a pointing dog. obviously it would never be adopted as an "AKC" type, but would be fun to watch the development.
Why should we?

Because if the breeders who developed the pointers we enjoy said the same thing... we would have many less breeds to choose from... qualified knowledgable breeders should still try to improve on the lines we have and develop better dogs... I personally think it would be good to develop an American Pointer breed... JMOP... but with that there is risk too... double edged sword I guess... I don't think just any old "i wanna breed my dog" owners should mix and match "makeamutts"... That can have dire repercussions for sure...

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:37 am

SHORTFAT wrote:
displaced_texan wrote:
Ahumphers91a wrote:I agee to an extent. I'm saying We as American's should try and produce a pointing dog. obviously it would never be adopted as an "AKC" type, but would be fun to watch the development.
Why should we?
Because if the breeders who developed the pointers we enjoy said the same thing... we would have many less breeds to choose from... qualified knowledgable breeders should still try to improve on the lines we have and develop better dogs... I personally think it would be good to develop an American Pointer breed... JMOP... but with that there is risk too... double edged sword I guess... I don't think just any old "i wanna breed my dog" owners should mix and match "makeamutts"... That can have dire repercussions for sure...

I see what you are saying, but this is a different time and place.

IMO we would be better served by continuing to refine the many pointing breeds we currently have than spending decades at least to have an American breed just for the sake of it.

The breeds wehave now were generally bred to meet changes in the way people hunted, I just don't see a change that demands a new skill set, but rather just a continued improvement in existing skills and traits.

I realize this is an unpopular view, but I don't see nationalism as a good reason to make a new breed of dog.

If the motivation is a dog that will do something that you can't find a dog to do already that makes sense to me...

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:11 am

Both great points. Going back to the link provided, I would dock the tails on them lab shorthair crosses. I had a female about 10 years ago that just beat her tail bloody in the dog run fence. Also, yes, that would be a bad thing to bring out the people who breed just to breed, but don't we have that problem already with pure breds aswell? I think if some reputable breeder/trainer did this for a couple generations I would have to seriously contimplate buying a pup.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:36 am

If I wanted to tinker with something then I would buy a 1940s Packard....I'd leave the dogs alone, that is what I would do.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:23 pm

displaced_texan, I don't think you have an unpopular view at all... on the contrary, most guys who really care about the breeds would rather error on the side of caution than have pointing frankenstiens just for the American namesake. You have a valid point. But if we could develop a different and versetile breed that could do it all better or as well as the specific skill set breeds that we have then... mebee... then again... we have such a diverse country with so many different types of bird hunting terrain it would probably be about impossible... till then... i'll just keep sticking my pointer in the canoe and showing her ducks to point from the boat... I'll have to retrieve them myself...

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:45 pm

SHORTFAT wrote:displaced_texan, I don't think you have an unpopular view at all... on the contrary, most guys who really care about the breeds would rather error on the side of caution than have pointing frankenstiens just for the American namesake. You have a valid point. But if we could develop a different and versetile breed that could do it all better or as well as the specific skill set breeds that we have then... mebee... then again... we have such a diverse country with so many different types of bird hunting terrain it would probably be about impossible... till then... i'll just keep sticking my pointer in the canoe and showing her ducks to point from the boat... I'll have to retrieve them myself...

It gets me jumped regularly on the diesel forum

You just need to realize that pointers are the perfect dogs and any of their seeming shortcomings are really just defects in your hunting habits

Looks like we are actually on the same page in this one!!!

chiendog · Post by **chiendog** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:45 pm

A couple of thoughts, in no particular order, but they reflect what I have learned studying all the pointing breeds so long and hard that my once glorious mullet of thick brown hair is now a mix of grey stubble and pink scalp....

Anwho, there were basically two missed opportunities for North Americans to create their own pointing breed. The first was during the golden age of gundog creation, from about 1880 to 1920. That is when the vast majority of the various pointing dogs were created or perfected in Europe. Pointers and Setters were already here in the 1880s of course and so were "native" setters and even "droppers". But for a variety of reasons, the native dogs never took off and the English ones remained "english".

The second chance was just before and after WW2 when all the various euro imports started showing up. Americans could have just adopted and adapted them and re-named them "American Shorthaired (or wirehaired or longhaired) Pointer". But once again, for various reasons, it never happened. Breeders tried to keep the German (or French or whatever) connection..even if the connection exists in name only. I mean, c'mon, we've all seen GSPs and GWPs that are about as German as a Coney Island hotdog with chipotle sauce and Brittanies that are as French as an order of fish and chips served in a London newspaper. But some breeders did keep a tight connection and even helped import the euro club and its breeding and testing system to the US. And a lot of folks still argue over which one is the "true" version of the breed..yada yada yada.

So here we are today. And a few guys do still try from time to time to create a true American breed. I interviewed the Wessl Pointer guy for my book and feature a photo of one of his dogs and the history of his efforts in one of the chapters. He seemed like a bright guy and to be honest, I thought he had a great idea: to produce a breed built from the ground up for American hunting styles. But I told him that, in my opinion, the golden age of gundog breeding is long gone. As hard as it is to admit, ours is a fading past time. Hunting, hunting dogs, hunting dog breeding, fine side by sides, field sports and sportsmanship is no longer what it used to be and the market for a brand new breed of dog is too small and the old breed club structures too ossified to ever give any support.

I sometimes think we should have all been born about 150 years ago.

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:49 pm

VERY VERY good point! I wish I were around back then, i probably would have been one to start an "AMERICAN" Pointing breed.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:51 pm

There are always breeds in various stages of "development" here in the US and I would assume other parts of the world as well. In 100 years these dogs might be a recognized breed. Developers have a harder row to hoe these days as its hard to keep enough dogs to set a line without someone crying foul... Or finding enough like minded folks that can focus on a singular goal.

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:59 pm

where's the "like" button...LOL

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:04 pm

displaced_texan wrote:
SHORTFAT wrote:displaced_texan, I don't think you have an unpopular view at all... on the contrary, most guys who really care about the breeds would rather error on the side of caution than have pointing frankenstiens just for the American namesake. You have a valid point. But if we could develop a different and versetile breed that could do it all better or as well as the specific skill set breeds that we have then... mebee... then again... we have such a diverse country with so many different types of bird hunting terrain it would probably be about impossible... till then... i'll just keep sticking my pointer in the canoe and showing her ducks to point from the boat... I'll have to retrieve them myself...
It gets me jumped regularly on the diesel forum

You just need to realize that pointers are the perfect dogs and any of their seeming shortcomings are really just defects in your hunting habits

Looks like we are actually on the same page in this one!!!

Bwahahahahahaha

And you have to hang around with???????

I'm quite interested to hear your thoughts on the similarities and differences between those two longtails you feed. Seems to me that Turbo is a little more laid back and methodical (credit CLJ, here) and Sage is going to be a high stepping, high heeled honey. Her sister, by the way, the pick liver girl, is a handful. She cruises the kennels and slips in to visit all her grownup friends.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:15 pm

The other thing to consider is where is the need? Most dog needs have been covered and various traits can be found in one breed or another and most certainly in specific individuals in a given breed. All that needs to be done is select individuals from the "breed" that have the traits you are looking for. Most certainly whatever you would be in need of there is a dog out there that is more than capable of doing the job.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:18 pm

How about a smooth German wirehaired pointer?

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:26 pm

ACooper wrote:The other thing to consider is where is the need? Most dog needs have been covered and various traits can be found in one breed or another and most certainly in within specific individuals in a given breed. All that needs to be done is select individuals from the "breed" that have the traits you are looking for. Most certainly whatever you would be in need of there is a dog out there that is more than capable of doing the job.

Exactly my thoughts...

Cajun Casey wrote:
displaced_texan wrote:
SHORTFAT wrote:displaced_texan, I don't think you have an unpopular view at all... on the contrary, most guys who really care about the breeds would rather error on the side of caution than have pointing frankenstiens just for the American namesake. You have a valid point. But if we could develop a different and versetile breed that could do it all better or as well as the specific skill set breeds that we have then... mebee... then again... we have such a diverse country with so many different types of bird hunting terrain it would probably be about impossible... till then... i'll just keep sticking my pointer in the canoe and showing her ducks to point from the boat... I'll have to retrieve them myself...
It gets me jumped regularly on the diesel forum

You just need to realize that pointers are the perfect dogs and any of their seeming shortcomings are really just defects in your hunting habits

Looks like we are actually on the same page in this one!!!

Bwahahahahahaha

And you have to hang around with???????

I'm quite interested to hear your thoughts on the similarities and differences between those two longtails you feed. Seems to me that Turbo is a little more laid back and methodical (credit CLJ, here) and Sage is going to be a high stepping, high heeled honey. Her sister, by the way, the pick liver girl, is a handful. She cruises the kennels and slips in to visit all her grownup friends.

So far you are pretty much spot on. She is definitely more of a handful at her age than either of my CLJ pups were.

I was actually thinking I should make a thread on that in a month or two after she grows up a little more.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:30 pm

displaced_texan wrote:So far you are pretty much spot on. She is definitely more of a handful at her age than either of my CLJ pups were.

I was actually thinking I should make a thread on that in a month or two after she grows up a little more.

You can thank me now for getting letting you know about her so you could get her out of there before she learned to bark like a shorthair!

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:33 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
displaced_texan wrote:So far you are pretty much spot on. She is definitely more of a handful at her age than either of my CLJ pups were.

I was actually thinking I should make a thread on that in a month or two after she grows up a little more.
You can thank me now for getting letting you know about her so you could get her out of there before she learned to bark like a shorthair!

For sure!

The wife wasn't completely on board with her until they met. Fortunately for me Pointer puppies are quite adorable in her eyes.

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