harris kennels/ guard rail line

mmbrown · Post by **mmbrown** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:34 pm

I am lookin at a few different litters from this kennel. I was wondering what everyone thought about their operation and genetics. No bashing them just want opinions please. Any personal knowledge bout them and their kennel be nice to know. And also what are the good and/or bad traits that guard rail has and passes on to his progeny.

Thanks
Matt brown

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:26 pm

I would stay away from anything on the bottom side of a ped with the Kraftsman Kocain bitch in it! She throws a genetic flaw that is passed through females. Just an fyi. I believe the Harris' have nice dogs. I've never got one from them but wouldn't shy away from it. The only thing I would avoid is what I mentioned.

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:27 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:I would stay away from anything on the bottom side of a ped with the Kraftsman Kocain bitch in it! She throws a genetic flaw that is passed through females. Just an fyi. I believe the Harris' have nice dogs. I've never got one from them but wouldn't shy away from it. The only thing I would avoid is what I mentioned.

what is this flaw since you seem to have so much knowledge about her??

sckwest1 · Post by **sckwest1** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:32 am

I do not know a whole lot about the Guard Rail line, but I do know Jim and Matt Harris the co-owners of Harris Kennels. They are very upstanding people. They breed with the goal of producing the best gundogs possible. They are very nice easy people to deal with, I would suggest if you have any questions simply give them a call. Goodluck, SCKWEST

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:46 am

dudley, with that sarcasim, I know you wouldn't hear what I have to say anyway. As another post said. Give em a call and talk dogs with them. Iver heard they are real nice guys.

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:15 am

So does River knot,Southern Pride,Souths Late Night,Millers Online all carry this flaw?I know Wiggins has almost based his kennel on Miss Sammie the mother of Koke & Caladen Kennels has a healthy dose of Koke in their breeding program too.So i guess my guestion is is Kraftsman Ko Kane the only one in her litter that carries this flaw or was it just in the litter sired by Guardrail ?

BrassVols · Post by **BrassVols** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:03 am

mmbrown wrote:I am lookin at a few different litters from this kennel. I was wondering what everyone thought about their operation and genetics. No bashing them just want opinions please. Any personal knowledge bout them and their kennel be nice to know. And also what are the good and/or bad traits that guard rail has and passes on to his progeny.

Thanks
Matt brown

Matt,
We have a 5 month old male pup out of Guard Rail Spirit (Duke) x a Sinbad Daughter. Couldn't be happier with him or with the service we rcv'd from Jim during the process, extremely professional and did exactly as he said he'd do. He also saved me some significant money on shipping, having a personal carrier deliver to me vs. air shipment.
Pup was very healthly upon arrival (10 weeks) and is eager to please, shows alot of intensity on his pigeons to date. He's a really good looking pup. I cant get over the size of this pup's frame, he's gonna be a hoss.
One last thing...this is hands down the frendliest most loving pointer I've owned, great personality!
Call Mr. Harris and talk hunting dogs, he loves it.
Scott

BrassVols · Post by **BrassVols** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:07 am

ElhewPointer wrote:I would stay away from anything on the bottom side of a ped with the Kraftsman Kocain bitch in it! She throws a genetic flaw that is passed through females. Just an fyi. I believe the Harris' have nice dogs. I've never got one from them but wouldn't shy away from it. The only thing I would avoid is what I mentioned.

Please share your thoughts in detail. Not looking for a pissing contest, would honestly love to hear your opinion as I have some of this blood.
Thanks,
Scott

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:36 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:I would stay away from anything on the bottom side of a ped with the Kraftsman Kocain bitch in it! She throws a genetic flaw that is passed through females. Just an fyi. I believe the Harris' have nice dogs. I've never got one from them but wouldn't shy away from it. The only thing I would avoid is what I mentioned.

I would like to know about this genetic flaw as well...... I would also like to know what dogs that you have experience with that carry this genetic flaw

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:15 pm

cjuve wrote:I would like to know about this genetic flaw

I'm not sure about a genetic flaw but kokain does throw alot of color/ticking into her pups. I know the guy that owns her and he has said that.

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:56 pm

Ron R wrote:
cjuve wrote:I would like to know about this genetic flaw
I'm not sure about a genetic flaw but kokain does throw alot of color/ticking into her pups. I know the guy that owns her and he has said that.

Color huh... Is that 1 or 2 liver eye patches with all that ticking?

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:34 am

cjuve wrote:
Ron R wrote:
cjuve wrote:I would like to know about this genetic flaw
I'm not sure about a genetic flaw but kokain does throw alot of color/ticking into her pups. I know the guy that owns her and he has said that.

Color huh... Is that 1 or 2 liver eye patches with all that ticking?

Heavy body ticking mostly.

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:09 am

Ron R wrote:[quote="I'm not sure about a genetic flaw but kokain does throw alot of color/ticking into her pups. I know the guy that owns her and he has said that.

Color huh... Is that 1 or 2 liver eye patches with all that ticking?[/quote]
Heavy body ticking mostly.[/quote]

Let me see if I got this.....

So much more ticking than this?

and not really any patches like this?

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:30 am

cjuve, I'm just passing on what the gentleman that owns her has told me and bring some sort of closure to the genetic flaw comment. There may be more to it and there may not be more to it...I just don't know. I have seen some of her pups that were very heavily ticked and some that were clean bodied. I'm not sure what you're wanting to hear but that was the only knock that I've heard about the dog. Nothing really serious. If you have a specific question by all means just ask it.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:39 pm

cjuve wrote:
Ron R wrote:[quote="I'm not sure about a genetic flaw but kokain does throw alot of color/ticking into her pups. I know the guy that owns her and he has said that.

Color huh... Is that 1 or 2 liver eye patches with all that ticking?

Heavy body ticking mostly.[/quote]

Let me see if I got this.....

So much more ticking than this?

and not really any patches like this?

[/quote]

Stop trying to pass those dalmatians off as pointers!

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:35 pm

Let me see if I got this.....

So much more ticking than this?

and not really any patches like this?

Stop trying to pass those dalmatians off as pointers!

[/quote][/quote]

What can I say must be genetic

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:53 pm

They do have alot of color!!!

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:24 am

Color, a genetic defect, give me a break, they must be red or purple

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:28 am

myerstenn wrote:Color, a genetic defect, give me a break

Just to clearify, I never said that the dog had a genetic defect/flaw. That statement came from another poster but since I knew of a little history on the dog in question I thought I would share. I never once stated that the dog had a flaw.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:42 am

Ron R wrote:
myerstenn wrote:Color, a genetic defect, give me a break
Just to clearify, I never said that the dog had a genetic defect/flaw. That statement came from another poster but since I knew of a little history on the dog in question I thought I would share. I never once stated that the dog had a flaw.

It would be interesting to know what genetic defect that other poster was talking about so that peopleknow what to watch for. Did it happen with a lot of pups or just one was it with different siresor just one sire and not with others.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:37 am

kninebirddog wrote:
Ron R wrote:
myerstenn wrote:Color, a genetic defect, give me a break
Just to clearify, I never said that the dog had a genetic defect/flaw. That statement came from another poster but since I knew of a little history on the dog in question I thought I would share. I never once stated that the dog had a flaw.
It would be interesting to know what genetic defect that other poster was talking about so that peopleknow what to watch for. Did it happen with a lot of pups or just one was it with different siresor just one sire and not with others.

This entire post should be deleted based on misinformation and falsehoods made about "genetic flaws" produced by a particular dog. I can make up whatever I want post it on the web and it some how becomes fact.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:54 am

ACooper wrote:This entire post should be deleted based on misinformation and falsehoods made about "genetic flaws" produced by a particular dog. I can make up whatever I want post it on the web and it some how becomes fact.

I agree 100%.

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:03 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
Ron R wrote:
myerstenn wrote:Color, a genetic defect, give me a break
Just to clearify, I never said that the dog had a genetic defect/flaw. That statement came from another poster but since I knew of a little history on the dog in question I thought I would share. I never once stated that the dog had a flaw.
It would be interesting to know what genetic defect that other poster was talking about so that peopleknow what to watch for. Did it happen with a lot of pups or just one was it with different siresor just one sire and not with others.

My guess is that it was a bunch of BS that he heard over the phone or the internet cause I am pretty sure that he does not own a direct son or direct daughter of the bitch in question. I would also like to know how the poster figured that the supposed "Genetic Defect" came from the bottom side of the pedigree in the first place.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:33 pm

Ron R wrote: Just to clearify, I never said that the dog had a genetic defect/flaw. That statement came from another poster but since I knew of a little history on the dog in question I thought I would share. I never once stated that the dog had a flaw.

kninebirddog wrote:
It would be interesting to know what genetic defect that other poster was talking about so that people know what to watch for[/color]. Did it happen with a lot of pups or just one was it with different sires or just one sire and not with others.

ACooper wrote: This entire post should be deleted based on misinformation and falsehoods made about "genetic flaws" produced by a particular dog. I can make up whatever I want post it on the web and it some how becomes fact.

Do WHAT

...I think you Might try reading My post again...I am ASKING what Elhewpointer {OP of the defect post} was referring to in their post on the genetic flaw that they posted about and asking on how they based their information. And at the same time also indicating that RonR was NOT the person that started this..but if people would read all the posts they would see this :roll:

Re: harris kennels/ guard rail line

Post by ElhewPointer » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:26 pm
I would stay away from anything on the bottom side of a ped with the Kraftsman Kocain bitch in it! She throws a genetic flaw that is passed through females. Just an fyi. I believe the Harris' have nice dogs. I've never got one from them but wouldn't shy away from it. The only thing I would avoid is what I mentioned.

So again..Neither I nor RonR are the ones making up false accusation but WoW amazing how we are being accused of it when it was ELhewpointer that made this above statement

So yes I want to know where they derive their information from and WHAT they are talking about..What to watch for as I asked in My post.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:40 pm

cjuve wrote:

My guess is that it was a bunch of BS that he heard over the phone or the internet cause I am pretty sure that he does not own a direct son or direct daughter of the bitch in question. I would also like to know how the poster figured that the supposed "Genetic Defect" came from the bottom side of the pedigree in the first place.

Would be nice to know wouldn't it

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:50 pm

It would also be interesting to know if it were just 1 person out of the 10 that have direct offspring of the female in question that are having issues. If the issue lies in just 1 person's kennels then maybe it is not genetic but something that is enviormental.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:53 pm

K9 though I quoted your post I was meaning the second post in the this thread, and due to the misinformation this entire thread should be deleted. IMO

I was not referring to either you or Ron, I should have left out the quote.

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:36 pm

I think enough is enough of something this is just getting plain silly.

WHO CARES

i agree this whole thread should be deleted, if i was Harris Kennels i would be getting very upset when this female is a mom to a stud dog of mine that is bred quite often.. I would say this is getting out of hand with people speaking about stuff that few know any thing about first hand.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:45 pm

dudly, that is one nice looking pup in your avatar! Dare I ask how he is bred?

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:57 pm

dudleysmith wrote:getting out of hand with people speaking about stuff

One person made one negative comment.

dudleysmith wrote:if i was Harris Kennels i would be getting very upset when this female is a mom to a stud dog of mine that is bred quite often..

Jim Harris' breeding program and sales will be just fine...I promise

. This stuff turns into a circus pretty quick some times :roll: .

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:19 pm

ACooper wrote:K9 though I quoted your post I was meaning the second post in the this thread, and due to the misinformation this entire thread should be deleted. IMO

I was not referring to either you or Ron, I should have left out the quote.

OK...Had me confused

...But If there is something really behind what elhewpointer said I would hope that they have something to back up what they posted...
I can only wonder if the lack of follow up is due to the Holiday weekend.

Dudley Who ALL is speaking of stuff? ONE PERSON made a comment Maybe they know of A dog...maybe they know of a few..Until THAT ONE POSTER remarks with hopefully some FACTS which as I just said/reminded that this is a holiday weekend. Only thing someone else could make a reference on what some color has NOTHING to do with a Genetic Flaw

until such point people can only speculate.... Granted elhewpointers could have addressed that differently...But if there is truth to what they say...Maybe the kennel doesn't know because the owners of Said pups haven't told them

So until Elhewpointer can shed some light on why they are concerned about a certain dog but are OK with the Kennel and wouldn't shy away from them.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:30 am

Sorry, I wasn't around a computer for the weekend Easter. I've been PM'd by many people asking me what the deal is, then once I tell them they call me a liar and tell me I don't know what im talking about. Well, they don't know what they're talking about so, here. Demodectic mange is the issue I was refering to. It is passed on STRICTLY through the dam. THEREFORE if you have a pup from a stud dog out of Kraftman's Ko Kane, it will not be an issue. Do some research! She is a very nice bitch, I'm sure. This is not something "ive heard". I have had multiple experiences with this, PERSONALLY!!! Now all you guys can bash me all you want, but the truth is the truth. As I stated before, I've heard nothing but good things about Harris kennels. I just stating the FACTS! Don't ask me any questions, i'm done with it. Because half the PM's will ask me something all polite, then explode. You may disagree all you want. That is fine.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:48 am

Hereditary predisposition to demodectitis isn't a big deal. Many breeds have it. I work with way too many rescue pitbulls and mixes to give it a second thought. Proper shampoo, good nutrition, and an amatraz tick collar will eliminate 99% of cases. I agree an attempt should be made to breed away from it, but it is manageable and the majority of dogs age out of it by two or so.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:40 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:Sorry, I wasn't around a computer for the weekend Easter. I've been PM'd by many people asking me what the deal is, then once I tell them they call me a liar and tell me I don't know what im talking about. Well, they don't know what they're talking about so, here. Demodectic mange is the issue I was refering to. It is passed on STRICTLY through the dam. THEREFORE if you have a pup from a stud dog out of Kraftman's Ko Kane, it will not be an issue. Do some research! She is a very nice bitch, I'm sure. This is not something "ive heard". I have had multiple experiences with this, PERSONALLY!!! Now all you guys can bash me all you want, but the truth is the truth. As I stated before, I've heard nothing but good things about Harris kennels. I just stating the FACTS! Don't ask me any questions, i'm done with it. Because half the PM's will ask me something all polite, then explode. You may disagree all you want. That is fine.

Big secret almost ALL dogs have demodetic mange..Where it becomes a problem is when the immune system weak or compromised to the point and the bodies inability to keep the mange in check. This is why many vets do not like to treat it right away they want to see if the body will get control. Many pup will have a small sign of it when they are stressed.majority of the time it goes unnoticed
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm ... 01&aid=729
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/demodectic_mange.html

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:47 pm

Well, it was more than unnoticable. I am quite aware of the "levels" of it. This cases were very extreme!

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:06 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:Well, it was more than unnoticable. I am quite aware of the "levels" of it. This cases were very extreme!

I would very much wonder about the general immune systems of those dogs, then. Do you know if there were other problems like high puppy mortality, mammary cancer, or thyroid problems? Were they tested for tickborne illnesses or heartworm? Observations like yours sometimes lead to identifying causes. For years, it was anecdotal to not give ivermectin to collie types, then, BAM, they found the genetic marker. Same with EIC in Labs.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:13 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote:Well, it was more than unnoticable. I am quite aware of the "levels" of it. This cases were very extreme!
I would very much wonder about the general immune systems of those dogs, then. Do you know if there were other problems like high puppy mortality, mammary cancer, or thyroid problems? Were they tested for tickborne illnesses or heartworm? Observations like yours sometimes lead to identifying causes. For years, it was anecdotal to not give ivermectin to collie types, then, BAM, they found the genetic marker. Same with EIC in Labs.

The dogs were raised and taken care of with the best of care at home and at the vet. This is not the point. I answered the OP question. Enough said. Take it for what it worth. I just don't care for my animals to go through stuff like that. And I wont again.

BrassVols · Post by **BrassVols** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:14 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:Sorry, I wasn't around a computer for the weekend Easter. I've been PM'd by many people asking me what the deal is, then once I tell them they call me a liar and tell me I don't know what im talking about. Well, they don't know what they're talking about so, here. Demodectic mange is the issue I was refering to. It is passed on STRICTLY through the dam. THEREFORE if you have a pup from a stud dog out of Kraftman's Ko Kane, it will not be an issue. Do some research! She is a very nice bitch, I'm sure. This is not something "ive heard". I have had multiple experiences with this, PERSONALLY!!! Now all you guys can bash me all you want, but the truth is the truth. As I stated before, I've heard nothing but good things about Harris kennels. I just stating the FACTS! Don't ask me any questions, i'm done with it. Because half the PM's will ask me something all polite, then explode. You may disagree all you want. That is fine.

Thanks for the info EP, appreciate the input.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:18 pm

BrassVols wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote:Sorry, I wasn't around a computer for the weekend Easter. I've been PM'd by many people asking me what the deal is, then once I tell them they call me a liar and tell me I don't know what im talking about. Well, they don't know what they're talking about so, here. Demodectic mange is the issue I was refering to. It is passed on STRICTLY through the dam. THEREFORE if you have a pup from a stud dog out of Kraftman's Ko Kane, it will not be an issue. Do some research! She is a very nice bitch, I'm sure. This is not something "ive heard". I have had multiple experiences with this, PERSONALLY!!! Now all you guys can bash me all you want, but the truth is the truth. As I stated before, I've heard nothing but good things about Harris kennels. I just stating the FACTS! Don't ask me any questions, i'm done with it. Because half the PM's will ask me something all polite, then explode. You may disagree all you want. That is fine.
Thanks for the info EP, appreciate the input.

+1 Thanks

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:29 pm

Could it be a fact all the dogs you have experience with be from the same kennel?

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:47 pm

I've personally dealt with the demodectic mange twice, one small case in a 16 week old pup that was cleared up once and never returned,My vet said it was most likely brought on from his shots.The other case was a BAD BAD BAD one and it was with an Elhew type pointer,he got it at 2 years old,it took 6 months to get rid of and he had a recurrence every spring for the rest of his 11 years,the thought was that a pollen or some airborne irritant set it in motion,that was not the only genetic defect the dog had though,he had liver problems and hypoglycemia as well.His Grandsire was Elhew upland Gilly who was also afflicted with the hypoglycemia i've heard,the dams side was yeller rose stuff Bullfrog,the dams littermate passed at 3 years old from liver failure.

Demo ain't bad to deal with unless you get a case where 1/4 or more of the dogs body is showing the effects of it,mine was missing most of his hair up the forelegs to the armpits,all of the hair on his chest and up his neck,all of the hair on his ears was gone and he STUNK like you wouldn't believe.Had I known it would be the precursor to the grand mal type seizures and host of other problems I'd have put the dog down when he was 2.The recurrences were never nearly as bad but they were bad enough.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:53 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:Well, it was more than unnoticable. I am quite aware of the "levels" of it. This cases were very extreme!

Handled well and thanks for that.

Ezzy

hustonmc · Post by **hustonmc** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:36 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:I would stay away from anything on the bottom side of a ped with the Kraftsman Kocain bitch in it! She throws a genetic flaw that is passed through females. Just an fyi. I believe the Harris' have nice dogs. I've never got one from them but wouldn't shy away from it. The only thing I would avoid is what I mentioned.

So let me get this straight..............Koke passes on mange, a genetic flaw to the females, and this flaw is passed through the females. So what you are saying in Koke got her genetic flaw from Miss Sammie. A dog that has produced 25 or so winners and I believe something like 15 Champions. Seems like me the one genetic flaw passed is..........................winning. But that's not to say all her daughters, such as Koke, didn't have mange. But the dogs that I do know of that didn't have mange, I think I'd take the chance. I'll chalk this opinion as just someones opinion, that shouldn't have been aired as fact on a public forum, just my 2 cents.

http://www.wigginsriver.com/wigginswinners.htm

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:43 pm

It doesn't sound like somebody's opinion to me. It sounds like somebody with first hand experience. I also think it was appropriate to post this knowledge and the potential buyers can make their own decision based on what they have learned. JMO

Charlie

hustonmc · Post by **hustonmc** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:48 pm

birddogger wrote:It doesn't sound like somebody's opinion to me. It sounds like somebody with first hand experience. I also think it was appropriate to post this knowledge and the potential buyers can make their own decision based on what they have learned. JMO

Charlie

Last I checked a fact needed some factual documentation behind it.

My opinion: From my first hand expirience, someone that confuses opinion with fact is an idiot. But's that's just my opinion, from expirience.

It's pretty ballsy and brash to post something on the internet without factual info backing it. It doesn't take long for people to take this "expirience" as gosspil.

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:07 pm

EVERY dog on the planet has mange,it's passed from mother to pup while nursing,it's a skin mite.Some dogs have a depressed immune system from linebreeding/inbreeding thus this is where the whole blaming it on genetics is coming from,when in all actuallity is not very truthfull, Mange isn't the genetic defect the genetic defect is in the afflicted individuals breeding.Breed to close with something that ain't the bee's knees of specimens and here comes the trainwreck.Magnification of the good and the BAD.But see not everyone can be a ruthless culler or extremely picky on what they are breeding , in a sense going all in with a pair of ducks.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:39 pm

hustonmc wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote:I would stay away from anything on the bottom side of a ped with the Kraftsman Kocain bitch in it! She throws a genetic flaw that is passed through females. Just an fyi. I believe the Harris' have nice dogs. I've never got one from them but wouldn't shy away from it. The only thing I would avoid is what I mentioned.
So let me get this straight..............Koke passes on mange, a genetic flaw to the females, and this flaw is passed through the females. So what you are saying in Koke got her genetic flaw from Miss Sammie. A dog that has produced 25 or so winners and I believe something like 15 Champions. Seems like me the one genetic flaw passed is..........................winning. But that's not to say all her daughters, such as Koke, didn't have mange. But the dogs that I do know of that didn't have mange, I think I'd take the chance. I'll chalk this opinion as just someones opinion, that shouldn't have been aired as fact on a public forum, just my 2 cents.

http://www.wigginsriver.com/wigginswinners.htm

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/demodectic_mange.html

All dogs raised normally by their mothers possess this mite as mites are transferred from mother to pup via cuddling during the first few days of life. Most dogs live in harmony with their mites, never suffering any consequences from being parasitized. If, however, conditions change to upset the natural equilibrium (such as some kind of suppression of the dog's immune system), the Demodex mites may "gain the upper hand." The mites proliferate and can cause serious skin disease.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/demodectic_mange.html

It is only a genetic issue if the PUP has something wrong...Anything can set the mites off from a compromised immune system where the pup is not handling stress well to getting sick to being born with a suppressed immune system..It is nothing to get all up in arms about

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:38 pm

hustonmc wrote:
birddogger wrote:It doesn't sound like somebody's opinion to me. It sounds like somebody with first hand experience. I also think it was appropriate to post this knowledge and the potential buyers can make their own decision based on what they have learned. JMO

Charlie
Last I checked a fact needed some factual documentation behind it.

My opinion: From my first hand expirience, someone that confuses opinion with fact is an idiot. But's that's just my opinion, from expirience.

It's pretty ballsy and brash to post something on the internet without factual info backing it. It doesn't take long for people to take this "expirience" as gosspil.

When I have first hand experience with something, I consider it fact and not an opinion. I am only saying, I don't think the post was inappropriate. It seems that most disagree with me and that is why I put "JMO' at the end of my last post. Also, anybody who calls me an idiot because they don't agree with me can be called something too but I will keep it clean. It seems that lately more and more people can't discuss anything without name calling. People who do this are usually lacking in intellect or are just simply jerks.

Charlie

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:05 am

hustonmc wrote:
birddogger wrote:It doesn't sound like somebody's opinion to me. It sounds like somebody with first hand experience. I also think it was appropriate to post this knowledge and the potential buyers can make their own decision based on what they have learned. JMO

Charlie
Last I checked a fact needed some factual documentation behind it.

My opinion: From my first hand expirience, someone that confuses opinion with fact is an idiot. But's that's just my opinion, from expirience.

It's pretty ballsy and brash to post something on the internet without factual info backing it. It doesn't take long for people to take this "expirience" as gosspil.

Would you like the vet bill? It has nothing to do with ballsy or brash at all. I stated FACTS from personal EXPERIENCE. The OP post asked a question. I never said that the dog didn't produce nice dogs. Actually the dogs that I had experience with are very gifted athletically and mentally. Great dogs minus the facts.

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:41 am

tn red wrote:Could it be a fact all the dogs you have experience with be from the same kennel?

Could you please answer this?Wiggins claims he has never saw it in the Sammie females,Harris has never saw it in his pups,the man who owns Koke has never saw it in her pups!Im just guessing here but id say your referring to the Fibber pup that was a granddaughter of Koke that had this flaw?Where the rest of the cases that you saw a result of the Guardrail frozen breeding?