Puppy contract ????
Re: Puppy contract ????
FWIW... from a first time buyer...
As I do my breeder research and try to find the best overall breeder fit I look for these things (not in order). Proximity to me for training help in the future, proven breedings, good references, what the contract says I can and cant do with my dog... etc.
My point is this. I am turned off by anyone telling me what I can and cant do with the things I own. As an example, the governtment is trying to tell me that I have to pay more taxes for the good investment choices I made, the work I put into those investments. I am being "punished" for being a wise stuard of my things. This is not right.
IMHO, if I buy a pup, its mine. I can do whatever I want with it. I can train it, I can never let it smell a bird. I can breed it, I can get it spayed. I can trial or test it, I can put it in conformation. Whatever I desire to do with the investment that I made is my business and not the business of the person who sold it to me.
That would be like McDonalds selling a happy meal and saying that only a kid can eat it... I love happy meals dad gum it!
As I do my breeder research and try to find the best overall breeder fit I look for these things (not in order). Proximity to me for training help in the future, proven breedings, good references, what the contract says I can and cant do with my dog... etc.
My point is this. I am turned off by anyone telling me what I can and cant do with the things I own. As an example, the governtment is trying to tell me that I have to pay more taxes for the good investment choices I made, the work I put into those investments. I am being "punished" for being a wise stuard of my things. This is not right.
IMHO, if I buy a pup, its mine. I can do whatever I want with it. I can train it, I can never let it smell a bird. I can breed it, I can get it spayed. I can trial or test it, I can put it in conformation. Whatever I desire to do with the investment that I made is my business and not the business of the person who sold it to me.
That would be like McDonalds selling a happy meal and saying that only a kid can eat it... I love happy meals dad gum it!
- Vonzeppelinkennels
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:14 pm
- Location: Amelia,Ohio
Re: Puppy contract ????
Proudag I totaly agree I pay my money It's mine I can do as I please with it & feel the same about any pup I sell it's your's to do as you want.I have the right not to sell you a dog but once I do it's yours.
I hate anyone telling me what I can or can not do & if some one tries I usually do just the opposite just to prove a point.
I would not even look at a pup that has any kind of contract nor would I co own for that same reason.
I think most of my generation still believe your word & handshake are worth more then a piece of paper.
Why does everything have to be so difficult with so much red tape?
Have you bought a car lately,it's an all day job!!
I hate anyone telling me what I can or can not do & if some one tries I usually do just the opposite just to prove a point.
I would not even look at a pup that has any kind of contract nor would I co own for that same reason.
I think most of my generation still believe your word & handshake are worth more then a piece of paper.
Why does everything have to be so difficult with so much red tape?
Have you bought a car lately,it's an all day job!!
Star & Storm's placements
http://www.fieldtrialdatabase.com/dog.php4?id=23322
http://www.fieldtrialdatabase.com/dog.php4?id=65770
Ted Meyer
http://www.fieldtrialdatabase.com/dog.php4?id=23322
http://www.fieldtrialdatabase.com/dog.php4?id=65770
Ted Meyer
- briarpatch
- Rank: 2X Champion
- Posts: 447
- Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:12 pm
- Location: Southern NJ
Re: Puppy contract ????
your reading to much into it , it is in there as I dont want buyers who throw a dog out on on a chain and let it live there all year ..I know of several people who do that as well ..It's not me being ridiculous, that is what the contract said. It stated the dog is to not be on the chain for more than a couple hours. There's no way you can re enforce that, why even have it?
to me that isnt much of a life for a dog and even though it is now your dog as you purchased it, I dont want my pups to go to a person who does that .. buys a dog and leaves it out on a chain for its lifetime ..
and to Mcdonalds guy this is not a cheeseburger, this is something I have spent tens of thousands of dollars and thousands of hours in research alone and put my heart into to produce , I care where and what happens to the pups I produce..
so yeah if the new owner doesnt respect that, or disagrees with a few very simple clauses such as a registered name being used , the dog cant live on a chain , and you update me on its progress cant be followed , then yeah they probably aint a buyer i would want to have my pup go to anyway...
Re: Puppy contract ????
Whether its a cheesburger or a dog, the principle of it is still the same. That contract says, "Here, I will let you rent my puppy for a one time payment of $XXX but as soon as I see something I don't like, I'm 'evicting' you of ownership. As long as you walk this line you can keep the pup. If not, its mine" Thats rediculous. You wouldnt sign a mortgage if it said your house had to be decorated a certain way would you? You wouldn't let a doctor deliver your kid that required you to name it after him would you? No, you wouldnt. Its the same thing...briarpatch wrote:and to Mcdonalds guy this is not a cheeseburger, this is something I have spent tens of thousands of dollars and thousands of hours in research alone and put my heart into to produce , I care where and what happens to the pups I produce...
**extreme examples were used to prove a point, not to be literal**
- Cajun Casey
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 4243
- Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:59 pm
- Location: Tulsa, OK
Re: Puppy contract ????
I look at it like, you can't borrow a Kleenex. You have to cut the ties somewhere. If that much control is necessary, then get a waiting list of friends and referrals that are going to be long term relationships and dole the pups out to them instead of advertising on the internet. We just sold a puppy to a man who still has that pup's great grandma's littermate. That's a cool feeling. But, I'm not going to tell him what to do with her. Evidently he's done a pretty good job in the past because the old dog is nearly 13 and retired this season.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Re: Puppy contract ????
The contract is not restrictive or telling me what to do? "It states My kennel name be used on the pup and the german use of the alphabet". I understand why breeders want their kennels names to appear on the pups but I'm totally against it. The buyer should be free to name the pup what he/she wants.
That's enough right there for me not to consider the pup. That is just me.
That's enough right there for me not to consider the pup. That is just me.
6xCH, 2xRU CH FC Alpenblick's Southern Bell
NGSPA CH, FC Cruzin's Probable Cause "Mac"
3xCH, NGPDA NC, FC Cruzin's Rocket Queen "Roxy"
Pineland's Streak "Sadie"
Cruzin's Moneymaker "Penny"
Cruzin Kennels on Facebook
Cruzin Kennels ~ http://www.cruzinkennels.com/
NGSPA CH, FC Cruzin's Probable Cause "Mac"
3xCH, NGPDA NC, FC Cruzin's Rocket Queen "Roxy"
Pineland's Streak "Sadie"
Cruzin's Moneymaker "Penny"
Cruzin Kennels on Facebook
Cruzin Kennels ~ http://www.cruzinkennels.com/
Re: Puppy contract ????
As a Euro breeder, I am bound to the breeding/registration regs of the VDD. At 7 weeks, pups are tattoed with their registration number, which corresponds to the registration papers upon which there has to be a name which is reported the JGHV and FCI. I have never had anyone complain about a name...folks are free to have the call name of their choice.The contract is not restrictive or telling me what to do? "It states My kennel name be used on the pup and the german use of the alphabet". I understand why breeders want their kennels names to appear on the pups but I'm totally against it. The buyer should be free to name the pup what he/she wants.
That's enough right there for me not to consider the pup. That is just me.
Re: Puppy contract ????
Brian, I turn away many more puppy buyers than I sell to. I have issues with people that have HUGE questionaires to fill out for buying a puppy, I have issues with people taking credit cards for pups, or PayPal...Just me....I "talk" to someone, and I will probably ask alot of questions, and I may not get it right on every puppy buyer...But I sell to who I "feel" is right to own one of my pups...If someone emails me 2 times for info, I will give my phone number and they can call me....If they do not call, they are not serious.....I try to inform people as to options of what they can do with moving foreward with their pup...I do not "force" them to do anything, but encourage...I do not sell for pets..I always tell people if they ever have to get rid of the dog to give me first option to get the dog back...I do not write it down, but work with anyone to get the dog back, including shipping costs...I am occasionally disappointed in a pupy buyer as far as what they end up doing with the dog, but I am generally not disappointed in the home the dog has...I feel contracts are to make seller feel better, "I" try to feel better by feeling confident the buyer is who they say they are...I have found thru asking people in the area of a deposit giver questions about someone I may have a funny feeling about and found them to be somewhat of a puppy mill and returned the deposit saying I do not have a puppy for them....Human instinct in my book is best.....
brenda
Re: Puppy contract ????
We love getting dogs back, 2 for example are DC/AFC 3 x NSTRA Ch Gambles Odyssey Fritz MH RD VCX UT PR11 and FC (very close to DC) Gambles Sam Man...If someone is complaining about them, they are probably a hellava dog
brenda
- Birddog3412
- Rank: 2X Champion
- Posts: 491
- Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:09 am
- Location: Oblong, Illinois
Re: Puppy contract ????
I here what you are saying about the email/phone call thing. I also feel that people who call are usually alot more serious about buying. But you do have the peope who want to talk forever on the phone with no intention of buying. I have figured 1 out of 4 people emailing me are really interested, the other 3 just bored or nosey. I can think of 4 dogs/puppies right off hand that I have bought and never even talked the the person. I can think of twice as many where the person I was selling to never showed
I like to email people because I do not want to bother them if they are in the middle of somthing. I work shiftwork, email is the best for me because I may be sleeping when most people are wanting to call. Most questions can be answered by email.
I like to email people because I do not want to bother them if they are in the middle of somthing. I work shiftwork, email is the best for me because I may be sleeping when most people are wanting to call. Most questions can be answered by email.
Re: Puppy contract ????
This is great! I agree 100% Last I checked, breeding was not a business, although, I believe it is becoming one. Also, contracts are indicative of a business transaction. I do not consider selling or buying a pup a business transaction.snips wrote:Brian, I turn away many more puppy buyers than I sell to. I have issues with people that have HUGE questionaires to fill out for buying a puppy, I have issues with people taking credit cards for pups, or PayPal...Just me....I "talk" to someone, and I will probably ask alot of questions, and I may not get it right on every puppy buyer...But I sell to who I "feel" is right to own one of my pups...If someone emails me 2 times for info, I will give my phone number and they can call me....If they do not call, they are not serious.....I try to inform people as to options of what they can do with moving foreward with their pup...I do not "force" them to do anything, but encourage...I do not sell for pets..I always tell people if they ever have to get rid of the dog to give me first option to get the dog back...I do not write it down, but work with anyone to get the dog back, including shipping costs...I am occasionally disappointed in a pupy buyer as far as what they end up doing with the dog, but I am generally not disappointed in the home the dog has...I feel contracts are to make seller feel better, "I" try to feel better by feeling confident the buyer is who they say they are...I have found thru asking people in the area of a deposit giver questions about someone I may have a funny feeling about and found them to be somewhat of a puppy mill and returned the deposit saying I do not have a puppy for them....Human instinct in my book is best.....
6xCH, 2xRU CH FC Alpenblick's Southern Bell
NGSPA CH, FC Cruzin's Probable Cause "Mac"
3xCH, NGPDA NC, FC Cruzin's Rocket Queen "Roxy"
Pineland's Streak "Sadie"
Cruzin's Moneymaker "Penny"
Cruzin Kennels on Facebook
Cruzin Kennels ~ http://www.cruzinkennels.com/
NGSPA CH, FC Cruzin's Probable Cause "Mac"
3xCH, NGPDA NC, FC Cruzin's Rocket Queen "Roxy"
Pineland's Streak "Sadie"
Cruzin's Moneymaker "Penny"
Cruzin Kennels on Facebook
Cruzin Kennels ~ http://www.cruzinkennels.com/
Re: Puppy contract ????
Unless you live in a state where they do!!!I do not consider selling or buying a pup a business transaction.
Isn't that the truth!!! Try as you might, sometimes you just don't get the right owner paired up with the right pup.We love getting dogs back, 2 for example are DC/AFC 3 x NSTRA Ch Gambles Odyssey Fritz MH RD VCX UT PR11 and FC (very close to DC) Gambles Sam Man...If someone is complaining about them, they are probably a hellava dog
Question....you breeders let folks just grab any pup they want?
Re: Puppy contract ????
For me, they pic according to deposit....I keep track of when received and let them know where they are on the list..I designate the weekend after they turn 7 wks old, if they cannot make it I let them pic from pics or I do it...
brenda
Re: Puppy contract ????
They get their pick in the order they paid their desposit. I do sometimes try to guide them but here again it is their money and it is their right to pick the one they decide on.
Ezzy
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
Re: Puppy contract ????
So as the breeder, you take what's left? You don't care where most promising pups go--or if they will ever come back into the genepool?They get their pick in the order they paid their desposit.
Just wondering...
- Vonzeppelinkennels
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:14 pm
- Location: Amelia,Ohio
Re: Puppy contract ????
As a breeder sometimes I take 1st pick & sometimes I take whats left over just depends on the litter & if I bred for myself or bred just to sell.
If the litter is bred right theres really not that much difference & depends more on how the pups are developed by the owners & trainers as to which one ends up being the best.
Also depends what each person wants & what venue they will be used in hunting,trials,etc.Sometimes pups are picked by sex,sometime by color, or actions alot of different reasons on picking a pup & not all are looking for the same thing.The best pup for one person is not the best for another.
If the litter is bred right theres really not that much difference & depends more on how the pups are developed by the owners & trainers as to which one ends up being the best.
Also depends what each person wants & what venue they will be used in hunting,trials,etc.Sometimes pups are picked by sex,sometime by color, or actions alot of different reasons on picking a pup & not all are looking for the same thing.The best pup for one person is not the best for another.
Star & Storm's placements
http://www.fieldtrialdatabase.com/dog.php4?id=23322
http://www.fieldtrialdatabase.com/dog.php4?id=65770
Ted Meyer
http://www.fieldtrialdatabase.com/dog.php4?id=23322
http://www.fieldtrialdatabase.com/dog.php4?id=65770
Ted Meyer
Re: Puppy contract ????
I am sue this will create a lot of comment most of it negative but my experience has been that the most promising pups at 8 weeks ar seldom the best at 6 months or a year or ever. I have many cases I can point to personally and know of many any FC that were the one left after all of the good one were picked. Delmar Smith made that comment many times that they had kept the one left and turned into a Champion. He said when picking a pup shut your eyes and take one. I can't do that but have found that they turn out closer to the exact opposite of what I had originally thought they would.
I think kids personalities switch many times from childhood to teenagers and I see the same thing happening with the pups quite often.
Ezzy
I think kids personalities switch many times from childhood to teenagers and I see the same thing happening with the pups quite often.
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
- dudleysmith
- Rank: Senior Hunter
- Posts: 197
- Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:42 pm
- Location: between a rock and a hard place
Re: Puppy contract ????
JKP wrote:So as the breeder, you take what's left? You don't care where most promising pups go--or if they will ever come back into the genepool?They get their pick in the order they paid their desposit.
Just wondering...
i breed the litter i WILL pick the ones i want, but that is not saying me and you would pick the same pup anyways, i pick weird color patterms or solid white cause you have no clue at 8 weeks old what one will be.
Re: Puppy contract ????
I will usually reserve pic for myself. If I do not take one then it goes to according to deposits.
brenda
- briarpatch
- Rank: 2X Champion
- Posts: 447
- Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:12 pm
- Location: Southern NJ
Re: Puppy contract ????
funny you should say that Remmy when I just looked at your dogs pedigrees both have the breeders name who bred them in their names ..HmmmThe contract is not restrictive or telling me what to do? "It states My kennel name be used on the pup and the german use of the alphabet". I understand why breeders want their kennels names to appear on the pups but I'm totally against it. The buyer should be free to name the pup what he/she wants.
That's enough right there for me not to consider the pup. That is just me.
I would have to guess that wasnt a requirement of the breeder you just put in there as that was the name you made up all on your own???
Brenda ,
I know very well of you and what you produce and respect what you and several others say that responded and what many of you all have done for the breed , and appreciate you all taking the time to respond, curious how do you go about having buyers put your kennel name on the dogs you produce without a contract ? Just ask them to do so ? or explain to them you would appreciate it if they do so and leave the option open to them?
- kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
Re: Puppy contract ????
Thing is if you have earned a name Like Rick and Brenda have earned theirs then buyers will want to add the kennel name. Not because it was demanded of them
In FDSB one has to have my written permission to use K Nine in the beginning or the last part of their dogs name...I give permission for people to use my name in the pups I sell to them If they use it Great if not that is fine also they still purchased their pup from me because they liked what I had to offer.
In FDSB one has to have my written permission to use K Nine in the beginning or the last part of their dogs name...I give permission for people to use my name in the pups I sell to them If they use it Great if not that is fine also they still purchased their pup from me because they liked what I had to offer.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
Re: Puppy contract ????
I require our name be used...IMO, it should be the breeders right. If someone wants to spend 30 of their years developing a line, then they deserve the same.
brenda
- briarpatch
- Rank: 2X Champion
- Posts: 447
- Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:12 pm
- Location: Southern NJ
Re: Puppy contract ????
I totally agree brenda , thanks for taking the time to respond..
Re: Puppy contract ????
Help me understand. What is the background of your kennel?..How many titles have you produced? While I do not know Brenda personally, it is obvious that she is well known and has great respect in the gun dog community. Comparing using your kennel name to Brenda using her's may be a stretch ( although I realize it is certainly your right). In all due repect, I think your being too controlling. Try mentoring the people that buy the pup's. Invite them to train with you. Introduce them to breed clubs, to professional trainers. Take them hunting with you... Recommend good books and dvd's to them (better yet, give them one to help them get started). Rather than demanding certain behavior...set a good example or put them in touch with other's that will. Let them enjoy the pup...Not worry that they may be "breaking" a contract...Just my opinion..Good luck...
Re: Puppy contract ????
I also like to see any serious breeder pursue some sort of title on the dog that says they can take training.....JH does not tell me a thing....If a dog cannot take training it should not be bred IMO. This is just something we feel is important to build a line on...
brenda
- briarpatch
- Rank: 2X Champion
- Posts: 447
- Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:12 pm
- Location: Southern NJ
Re: Puppy contract ????
I was in no way attempting to compare my breedings or kennel to brenda's , I am a newby when it comes to breeding, and being a newby was curious how she a pro at this went about putting her kennel name on the dog without a contract ...and was just agreeing that the breeder should have the right to have their kennel name on the dog..
Thanks GB , you also are indeed another breeder I well respect and want to thank you also for you taking your time as well for giving your input for newer people to breeding such as myself
Thanks GB , you also are indeed another breeder I well respect and want to thank you also for you taking your time as well for giving your input for newer people to breeding such as myself
Last edited by briarpatch on Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Puppy contract ????
All well said, but I think your contract will turn out to be counter productive. It may do just the opposite of what your trying to accomplish. By having such a "tight" contract, I think you will actually push certain and serious potential buyers away. Have the pups, get them into the right hands (and you will know who a good owner will be...most of the time), and then let time and experience take care of the rest. Once you've had success, revisit your contract idea. Once again, jmo and I offer these comments just for thought and consideration...Good luck..By the way, I've had gun dog's for 40 years. Have bred many outstanding dogs (in my opinion) including a National AA Champion...Never had a contract.
Good luck. Whatever you do will be a good learning experience and you can adjust it the next time if you need too.
Good luck. Whatever you do will be a good learning experience and you can adjust it the next time if you need too.
- briarpatch
- Rank: 2X Champion
- Posts: 447
- Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:12 pm
- Location: Southern NJ
Re: Puppy contract ????
What this has to do with a puppy contract or the subject at hand I have no clue seems more of a critism on my upcoming litter , i wasnt going to bother responding to it as same as I also attempted to ignore many other negative comments from people in this thread. I always try to be respectful of people who have done well for the breed like yourself and also respectful of anyones breedings.I also like to see any serious breeder pursue some sort of title on the dog that says they can take training.....JH does not tell me a thing....If a dog cannot take training it should not be bred IMO. This is just something we feel is important to build a line on
But the more i thought about it the more it bothered me and since ya threw a dig on my upcoming litter out there I feel the need to respond to it ,and a bit offended
No disrespect intended but the titles are great to see on dogs it lets you know what the dogs producing the litter is capable of and may even give you an idea of what the parents excell in , however A dog trained by a professional also tells me nothing of a dogs natural abilities , other than it has the ability to be turned into a great dog by a pro trainer...perhaps the dogs natural abilities lack but the trainer is real good ...I have seen dogs with impressive titles that i personally wouldnt want to own or hunt with , let alone breed I have also seen great untitled dogs that I would to give my left arm to own and breed ...IMO
unfortunately I am not a professional trainer , and also not too worried about winning titles ,I am a hunter, its fun to do, play games if i have the extra time and money , but i am a avid hunter and these dogs hunt and do it well enough even with my poor training skills from their natural abilities that I have several people who have hunted behind them that expressed they want a pup ..they also do it well enough I believe they will produce excellent pups ..
anyone who is familiar with a westwind a dog knows, if they are one thing its they are highly intellegent very bidable and easily trainable, even by an amature with little or no training skills ..
So because my dogs lack high titles earned after being trained by a pro doesnt mean they wont make excellent hunting dogs or that they wont produce pups that are easily trainable or have the potential to produce high titled dogs in the future , that just depends on who buys them who and how they train them and if they wish to play the games or not. I encourage people to play the games but a title or no title is not what is important to me to decide if a dog is a breedable dog or not .
everyone has there own criteria for breeding and or buying a pup..I certainly dont knock or attempt to Knock on anyones breedings in public even though many i disagree with if it was a really good breeding or not by my own personal criteria..IMO
Re: Puppy contract ????
You can "pro" this and "pro" that, but I bred and trained my own dogs for years before becoming pro...Matter of fact I had alot more time for personal dogs at that time...My dogs are always on the back burner now for train time.....
brenda
- briarpatch
- Rank: 2X Champion
- Posts: 447
- Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:12 pm
- Location: Southern NJ
Re: Puppy contract ????
I meant no offense to you sorry if you took it like that , I have encouraged many people to buy puppies from you I well respect you and your breedings..
You was the one who decided to bring up your personal opinion on titles on a thread on a breeding contract, so figured it only right I respond with my opinion on titles as well ..
You was the one who decided to bring up your personal opinion on titles on a thread on a breeding contract, so figured it only right I respond with my opinion on titles as well ..
- A/C Guy
- Rank: Master Hunter
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:43 pm
- Location: Apache Junction, Az
Re: Puppy contract ????
Same here. Lifetime against genetics defects. Guaranteed to hunt. Puppy must be returned to me if the buyer cannot keep the dog; my puppies should not end up in a shelter or rescue.ArcticRetrievers wrote:.... I might Offer a Longer Guaranteed for HD , I offer a Lifetime against Genetic Defects, not that everyone should I just feel that any dog I breed should be backed for life.
"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." John Quincy Adams.