Puppy contract ????

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proudag08
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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by proudag08 » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:23 am

FWIW... from a first time buyer...

As I do my breeder research and try to find the best overall breeder fit I look for these things (not in order). Proximity to me for training help in the future, proven breedings, good references, what the contract says I can and cant do with my dog... etc.

My point is this. I am turned off by anyone telling me what I can and cant do with the things I own. As an example, the governtment is trying to tell me that I have to pay more taxes for the good investment choices I made, the work I put into those investments. I am being "punished" for being a wise stuard of my things. This is not right.

IMHO, if I buy a pup, its mine. I can do whatever I want with it. I can train it, I can never let it smell a bird. I can breed it, I can get it spayed. I can trial or test it, I can put it in conformation. Whatever I desire to do with the investment that I made is my business and not the business of the person who sold it to me.

That would be like McDonalds selling a happy meal and saying that only a kid can eat it... I love happy meals dad gum it! :lol:

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:52 am

Proudag I totaly agree I pay my money It's mine I can do as I please with it & feel the same about any pup I sell it's your's to do as you want.I have the right not to sell you a dog but once I do it's yours.
I hate anyone telling me what I can or can not do & if some one tries I usually do just the opposite just to prove a point.
I would not even look at a pup that has any kind of contract nor would I co own for that same reason.
I think most of my generation still believe your word & handshake are worth more then a piece of paper.
Why does everything have to be so difficult with so much red tape?
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briarpatch
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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by briarpatch » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:04 am

It's not me being ridiculous, that is what the contract said. It stated the dog is to not be on the chain for more than a couple hours. There's no way you can re enforce that, why even have it?
your reading to much into it , it is in there as I dont want buyers who throw a dog out on on a chain and let it live there all year ..I know of several people who do that as well ..

to me that isnt much of a life for a dog and even though it is now your dog as you purchased it, I dont want my pups to go to a person who does that .. buys a dog and leaves it out on a chain for its lifetime ..

and to Mcdonalds guy this is not a cheeseburger, this is something I have spent tens of thousands of dollars and thousands of hours in research alone and put my heart into to produce , I care where and what happens to the pups I produce..
so yeah if the new owner doesnt respect that, or disagrees with a few very simple clauses such as a registered name being used , the dog cant live on a chain , and you update me on its progress cant be followed , then yeah they probably aint a buyer i would want to have my pup go to anyway...

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LBH
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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by LBH » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:09 am

I may be reading to much into it ... but a lawyer or a court will pick that thing apart, so you gotta state things the way you mean them.

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by proudag08 » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:44 am

briarpatch wrote:and to Mcdonalds guy this is not a cheeseburger, this is something I have spent tens of thousands of dollars and thousands of hours in research alone and put my heart into to produce , I care where and what happens to the pups I produce...
Whether its a cheesburger or a dog, the principle of it is still the same. That contract says, "Here, I will let you rent my puppy for a one time payment of $XXX but as soon as I see something I don't like, I'm 'evicting' you of ownership. As long as you walk this line you can keep the pup. If not, its mine" Thats rediculous. You wouldnt sign a mortgage if it said your house had to be decorated a certain way would you? You wouldn't let a doctor deliver your kid that required you to name it after him would you? No, you wouldnt. Its the same thing...

**extreme examples were used to prove a point, not to be literal**

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:55 am

I look at it like, you can't borrow a Kleenex. You have to cut the ties somewhere. If that much control is necessary, then get a waiting list of friends and referrals that are going to be long term relationships and dole the pups out to them instead of advertising on the internet. We just sold a puppy to a man who still has that pup's great grandma's littermate. That's a cool feeling. But, I'm not going to tell him what to do with her. Evidently he's done a pretty good job in the past because the old dog is nearly 13 and retired this season.
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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by remmy » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:20 pm

The contract is not restrictive or telling me what to do? "It states My kennel name be used on the pup and the german use of the alphabet". I understand why breeders want their kennels names to appear on the pups but I'm totally against it. The buyer should be free to name the pup what he/she wants.

That's enough right there for me not to consider the pup. That is just me.
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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by JKP » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:27 pm

The contract is not restrictive or telling me what to do? "It states My kennel name be used on the pup and the german use of the alphabet". I understand why breeders want their kennels names to appear on the pups but I'm totally against it. The buyer should be free to name the pup what he/she wants.

That's enough right there for me not to consider the pup. That is just me.
As a Euro breeder, I am bound to the breeding/registration regs of the VDD. At 7 weeks, pups are tattoed with their registration number, which corresponds to the registration papers upon which there has to be a name which is reported the JGHV and FCI. I have never had anyone complain about a name...folks are free to have the call name of their choice.

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by snips » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:48 pm

Brian, I turn away many more puppy buyers than I sell to. I have issues with people that have HUGE questionaires to fill out for buying a puppy, I have issues with people taking credit cards for pups, or PayPal...Just me....I "talk" to someone, and I will probably ask alot of questions, and I may not get it right on every puppy buyer...But I sell to who I "feel" is right to own one of my pups...If someone emails me 2 times for info, I will give my phone number and they can call me....If they do not call, they are not serious.....I try to inform people as to options of what they can do with moving foreward with their pup...I do not "force" them to do anything, but encourage...I do not sell for pets..I always tell people if they ever have to get rid of the dog to give me first option to get the dog back...I do not write it down, but work with anyone to get the dog back, including shipping costs...I am occasionally disappointed in a pupy buyer as far as what they end up doing with the dog, but I am generally not disappointed in the home the dog has...I feel contracts are to make seller feel better, "I" try to feel better by feeling confident the buyer is who they say they are...I have found thru asking people in the area of a deposit giver questions about someone I may have a funny feeling about and found them to be somewhat of a puppy mill and returned the deposit saying I do not have a puppy for them....Human instinct in my book is best.....
brenda

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by snips » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:56 pm

We love getting dogs back, 2 for example are DC/AFC 3 x NSTRA Ch Gambles Odyssey Fritz MH RD VCX UT PR11 and FC (very close to DC) Gambles Sam Man...If someone is complaining about them, they are probably a hellava dog :lol:
brenda

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by Birddog3412 » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:18 pm

I here what you are saying about the email/phone call thing. I also feel that people who call are usually alot more serious about buying. But you do have the peope who want to talk forever on the phone with no intention of buying. I have figured 1 out of 4 people emailing me are really interested, the other 3 just bored or nosey. I can think of 4 dogs/puppies right off hand that I have bought and never even talked the the person. I can think of twice as many where the person I was selling to never showed :D :D

I like to email people because I do not want to bother them if they are in the middle of somthing. I work shiftwork, email is the best for me because I may be sleeping when most people are wanting to call. Most questions can be answered by email.

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by remmy » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:21 pm

snips wrote:Brian, I turn away many more puppy buyers than I sell to. I have issues with people that have HUGE questionaires to fill out for buying a puppy, I have issues with people taking credit cards for pups, or PayPal...Just me....I "talk" to someone, and I will probably ask alot of questions, and I may not get it right on every puppy buyer...But I sell to who I "feel" is right to own one of my pups...If someone emails me 2 times for info, I will give my phone number and they can call me....If they do not call, they are not serious.....I try to inform people as to options of what they can do with moving foreward with their pup...I do not "force" them to do anything, but encourage...I do not sell for pets..I always tell people if they ever have to get rid of the dog to give me first option to get the dog back...I do not write it down, but work with anyone to get the dog back, including shipping costs...I am occasionally disappointed in a pupy buyer as far as what they end up doing with the dog, but I am generally not disappointed in the home the dog has...I feel contracts are to make seller feel better, "I" try to feel better by feeling confident the buyer is who they say they are...I have found thru asking people in the area of a deposit giver questions about someone I may have a funny feeling about and found them to be somewhat of a puppy mill and returned the deposit saying I do not have a puppy for them....Human instinct in my book is best.....
This is great! I agree 100% Last I checked, breeding was not a business, although, I believe it is becoming one. Also, contracts are indicative of a business transaction. I do not consider selling or buying a pup a business transaction.
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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by JKP » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:07 pm

I do not consider selling or buying a pup a business transaction.
Unless you live in a state where they do!!!
We love getting dogs back, 2 for example are DC/AFC 3 x NSTRA Ch Gambles Odyssey Fritz MH RD VCX UT PR11 and FC (very close to DC) Gambles Sam Man...If someone is complaining about them, they are probably a hellava dog
Isn't that the truth!!! Try as you might, sometimes you just don't get the right owner paired up with the right pup.

Question....you breeders let folks just grab any pup they want?

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by snips » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:02 pm

For me, they pic according to deposit....I keep track of when received and let them know where they are on the list..I designate the weekend after they turn 7 wks old, if they cannot make it I let them pic from pics or I do it...
brenda

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:10 pm

They get their pick in the order they paid their desposit. I do sometimes try to guide them but here again it is their money and it is their right to pick the one they decide on.

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by JKP » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:19 pm

They get their pick in the order they paid their desposit.
So as the breeder, you take what's left? You don't care where most promising pups go--or if they will ever come back into the genepool?

Just wondering...

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:29 pm

As a breeder sometimes I take 1st pick & sometimes I take whats left over just depends on the litter & if I bred for myself or bred just to sell.
If the litter is bred right theres really not that much difference & depends more on how the pups are developed by the owners & trainers as to which one ends up being the best.
Also depends what each person wants & what venue they will be used in hunting,trials,etc.Sometimes pups are picked by sex,sometime by color, or actions alot of different reasons on picking a pup & not all are looking for the same thing.The best pup for one person is not the best for another. :D

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:32 pm

I am sue this will create a lot of comment most of it negative but my experience has been that the most promising pups at 8 weeks ar seldom the best at 6 months or a year or ever. I have many cases I can point to personally and know of many any FC that were the one left after all of the good one were picked. Delmar Smith made that comment many times that they had kept the one left and turned into a Champion. He said when picking a pup shut your eyes and take one. I can't do that but have found that they turn out closer to the exact opposite of what I had originally thought they would.

I think kids personalities switch many times from childhood to teenagers and I see the same thing happening with the pups quite often.

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by dudleysmith » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:34 pm

JKP wrote:
They get their pick in the order they paid their desposit.
So as the breeder, you take what's left? You don't care where most promising pups go--or if they will ever come back into the genepool?

Just wondering...

i breed the litter i WILL pick the ones i want, but that is not saying me and you would pick the same pup anyways, i pick weird color patterms or solid white cause you have no clue at 8 weeks old what one will be.

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by snips » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:05 pm

I will usually reserve pic for myself. If I do not take one then it goes to according to deposits.
brenda

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by briarpatch » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:51 pm

The contract is not restrictive or telling me what to do? "It states My kennel name be used on the pup and the german use of the alphabet". I understand why breeders want their kennels names to appear on the pups but I'm totally against it. The buyer should be free to name the pup what he/she wants.

That's enough right there for me not to consider the pup. That is just me.
funny you should say that Remmy when I just looked at your dogs pedigrees both have the breeders name who bred them in their names ..Hmmm
I would have to guess that wasnt a requirement of the breeder you just put in there as that was the name you made up all on your own???

Brenda ,
I know very well of you and what you produce and respect what you and several others say that responded and what many of you all have done for the breed , and appreciate you all taking the time to respond, curious how do you go about having buyers put your kennel name on the dogs you produce without a contract ? Just ask them to do so ? or explain to them you would appreciate it if they do so and leave the option open to them?

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by kninebirddog » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:06 pm

Thing is if you have earned a name Like Rick and Brenda have earned theirs then buyers will want to add the kennel name. Not because it was demanded of them

In FDSB one has to have my written permission to use K Nine in the beginning or the last part of their dogs name...I give permission for people to use my name in the pups I sell to them If they use it Great if not that is fine also they still purchased their pup from me because they liked what I had to offer.
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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by snips » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:13 pm

I require our name be used...IMO, it should be the breeders right. If someone wants to spend 30 of their years developing a line, then they deserve the same.
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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by briarpatch » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:21 pm

I totally agree brenda , thanks for taking the time to respond..

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by bossman » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:52 pm

Help me understand. What is the background of your kennel?..How many titles have you produced? While I do not know Brenda personally, it is obvious that she is well known and has great respect in the gun dog community. Comparing using your kennel name to Brenda using her's may be a stretch ( although I realize it is certainly your right). In all due repect, I think your being too controlling. Try mentoring the people that buy the pup's. Invite them to train with you. Introduce them to breed clubs, to professional trainers. Take them hunting with you... Recommend good books and dvd's to them (better yet, give them one to help them get started). Rather than demanding certain behavior...set a good example or put them in touch with other's that will. Let them enjoy the pup...Not worry that they may be "breaking" a contract...Just my opinion..Good luck...

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by snips » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:17 pm

I also like to see any serious breeder pursue some sort of title on the dog that says they can take training.....JH does not tell me a thing....If a dog cannot take training it should not be bred IMO. This is just something we feel is important to build a line on...
brenda

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by briarpatch » Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:14 am

I was in no way attempting to compare my breedings or kennel to brenda's , I am a newby when it comes to breeding, and being a newby was curious how she a pro at this went about putting her kennel name on the dog without a contract ...and was just agreeing that the breeder should have the right to have their kennel name on the dog..

Thanks GB , you also are indeed another breeder I well respect and want to thank you also for you taking your time as well for giving your input for newer people to breeding such as myself
Last edited by briarpatch on Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by bossman » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:43 am

All well said, but I think your contract will turn out to be counter productive. It may do just the opposite of what your trying to accomplish. By having such a "tight" contract, I think you will actually push certain and serious potential buyers away. Have the pups, get them into the right hands (and you will know who a good owner will be...most of the time), and then let time and experience take care of the rest. Once you've had success, revisit your contract idea. Once again, jmo and I offer these comments just for thought and consideration...Good luck..By the way, I've had gun dog's for 40 years. Have bred many outstanding dogs (in my opinion) including a National AA Champion...Never had a contract.
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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by briarpatch » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:45 am

I also like to see any serious breeder pursue some sort of title on the dog that says they can take training.....JH does not tell me a thing....If a dog cannot take training it should not be bred IMO. This is just something we feel is important to build a line on
What this has to do with a puppy contract or the subject at hand I have no clue seems more of a critism on my upcoming litter , i wasnt going to bother responding to it as same as I also attempted to ignore many other negative comments from people in this thread. I always try to be respectful of people who have done well for the breed like yourself and also respectful of anyones breedings.
But the more i thought about it the more it bothered me and since ya threw a dig on my upcoming litter out there I feel the need to respond to it ,and a bit offended

No disrespect intended but the titles are great to see on dogs it lets you know what the dogs producing the litter is capable of and may even give you an idea of what the parents excell in , however A dog trained by a professional also tells me nothing of a dogs natural abilities , other than it has the ability to be turned into a great dog by a pro trainer...perhaps the dogs natural abilities lack but the trainer is real good ...I have seen dogs with impressive titles that i personally wouldnt want to own or hunt with , let alone breed I have also seen great untitled dogs that I would to give my left arm to own and breed ...IMO

unfortunately I am not a professional trainer , and also not too worried about winning titles ,I am a hunter, its fun to do, play games if i have the extra time and money , but i am a avid hunter and these dogs hunt and do it well enough even with my poor training skills from their natural abilities that I have several people who have hunted behind them that expressed they want a pup ..they also do it well enough I believe they will produce excellent pups ..
anyone who is familiar with a westwind a dog knows, if they are one thing its they are highly intellegent very bidable and easily trainable, even by an amature with little or no training skills ..

So because my dogs lack high titles earned after being trained by a pro doesnt mean they wont make excellent hunting dogs or that they wont produce pups that are easily trainable or have the potential to produce high titled dogs in the future , that just depends on who buys them who and how they train them and if they wish to play the games or not. I encourage people to play the games but a title or no title is not what is important to me to decide if a dog is a breedable dog or not .
everyone has there own criteria for breeding and or buying a pup..I certainly dont knock or attempt to Knock on anyones breedings in public even though many i disagree with if it was a really good breeding or not by my own personal criteria..IMO

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by snips » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:59 am

You can "pro" this and "pro" that, but I bred and trained my own dogs for years before becoming pro...Matter of fact I had alot more time for personal dogs at that time...My dogs are always on the back burner now for train time.....
brenda

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by briarpatch » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:48 am

I meant no offense to you sorry if you took it like that , I have encouraged many people to buy puppies from you I well respect you and your breedings..
You was the one who decided to bring up your personal opinion on titles on a thread on a breeding contract, so figured it only right I respond with my opinion on titles as well ..

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Re: Puppy contract ????

Post by A/C Guy » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:01 pm

ArcticRetrievers wrote:.... I might Offer a Longer Guaranteed for HD , I offer a Lifetime against Genetic Defects, not that everyone should I just feel that any dog I breed should be backed for life.
Same here. Lifetime against genetics defects. Guaranteed to hunt. Puppy must be returned to me if the buyer cannot keep the dog; my puppies should not end up in a shelter or rescue.
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