Genetics of AA dogs

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:24 pm

Is there ever a point that a dog runs too fast and hard? Is there a limit? I ask this question, because I have often wondered if a dog can have too much octane. I know that AA dogs need go, but is there ever a point where it is too much? I'm asking FT guys, and I don't know the answer. I can only say that for a foot hunter there is a point of diminishing returns. Will that ever happen in FTs?

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:38 pm

I can't claim to be an AA expert, but I did have one years ago that several people refused to scout for me cuz she was to hard to catch. She would go and go and go. I felt she had too much octane for sure.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:47 pm

I have never had an AA dog but I have had dogs and seen some that go so hard that they overrun their nose.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:51 pm

I can only say that for a foot hunter there is a point of diminishing returns.

Even a Spinone can outrun its nose. Seems you are completely hungup on labels anyway. My avatar runs a natural southern AA race and yet he competes as a Shooting Dog and I put a NAVHDA title on him. It's more about the dogs ability to adjust to whatever is presented, whether the handler is mounted on a horse or working tight woodcock cover. Its the brainpower that matters most, not the motor.

I prefer to have options, I want the horsepower when I need it. If all I did was woodcock hunt I would never need to press the accelerator, but I like to compete off a horse too, so I have Pointers ...that are smart.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:19 pm

Ross, in all honesty, how many days per year do you hunt wild birds? Phez, sharptails, quail, Huns, etc. There is a difference. I will not deny that your dogs are exceptional.

There is a point of diminishing returns.

Is there no such thing as too much HP?

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:26 pm

This debate seems to go on and on over the years, but I think it is mostly due to a lack of knowledge. Trial dogs whether AA or SD are not all run off dogs as many foot hunters would like to think. Keep in mind to be in judgement the dog has to be shown/seen. The line between SD and AA is pretty grey these days. Most of the top level Shooting Dogs out there can probably run in AA trials. (Take notice of the recent Championships won in both SD and AA by Purple Line Dan)To answer your question, I would say yes a dog can have too much run. They are called renegades or run offs and can't win consistantly in the FT game. The dogs that consistantly win do handle. That is the bottom line.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:18 am

Ross, in all honesty, how many days per year do you hunt wild birds?

300+

We train almost every day on wild birds, the only thing we don't do is shoot many. With 60-80 dogs in the kennel, we need all the wild birds possible, so harvesting our bird population is minimal.

We recently hosted the Fort Mill Purina Pts. Shooting Dog trial at our Plantation. We didn't plant any birds for that trial and the dogs averaged 6.2 covey finds per brace. The covies averaged in size from 30-50 birds. One brace had 15 wild covey finds in the hour. We are LOADED with wild birds!

IMO there is no such thing as too much horsepower, but we do more than the weekend warrior stuff. The difference is that our dogs have the ability to go big when we want them too, the average hunting dog does not have that gear and would never need it anyway.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:16 am

There are dogs that run to far and out of control yes but that has nothing to do with running too fast and hard. I don't think a dog can run too fast and hard as long as they have a decent nose and have the experience and brains to use it. I watched a pointer nail a grouse from like 30 feet yesterday at top speed, then I watched a pointer scenting his planted pigeons at like 50+++ feet and going from 100mph to 0 in an instant, his feet were putting holes in the feild to stop him.

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:04 am

Its not a question of blistering speed ,but more of how you get from point a to point b, an all age dog, or any dog trial for that matter. must be a front runner and be constantly moving to objectives out front. A dog with blistering speed would more than likely be dragging a rope tail which is not perferred. In my opinion speed is not as important as the ability to know where the front is.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:15 am

A dog with blistering speed would more than likely be dragging a rope tail which is not perferred.

You lost me on that one. Strut, the Purina All Age DOY last year, looks as good going as any animated Shooting Dog anywhere. He is also part of the hunting dog string on their Plantation in GA.

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:28 am

Birddogz wrote:Is there ever a point that a dog runs too fast and hard? Is there a limit? I ask this question, because I have often wondered if a dog can have too much octane. I know that AA dogs need go, but is there ever a point where it is too much? I'm asking FT guys, and I don't know the answer. I can only say that for a foot hunter there is a point of diminishing returns. Will that ever happen in FTs?

How many dogs have you ever ran off of horseback then a week later foot hunted them ? Do you know the difference between a true aa race and a miilk run? Do you know the AVG. speed for the AA dog that is on the ground for an hr? How fast does the average foot hunting dog run?

How do you know that the genetics from a precieved AA dog and a hunting dog are any different? What if it's just a smart dog that has been conditioned
and trained run the way that he does?

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:08 am

Good Grief Charlie Brown.....Lucy holds the football....another time...and you take a run at it.

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:11 am

Wyndancer wrote:Good Grief Charlie Brown.....Lucy holds the football....another time...and you take a run at it.

What does that mean?

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:32 am

What I'm saying is, is it ever enough? When a dog is running at top speed it is much more likely to become injured and run by birds. There are negatives to being wide open. I don't know, but the average AA dog has to run @ 12-14 mph sustained. If a dog is running hard, and hits a barbed wire fence buried under snow, he is going to shred himself. I had a friend in N. Wisconsin that had a high powered grouse dog.Short hair. It was a great dog, without a doubt. The dog actually freakishly impaled himself on a beaver chewed tree, and died due to the injury. Now, I know that was a freak injury, but I can't help but wondering if his high powered nature didn't contribute to the accident. My point is a person, dog, antelope, deer, etc. is going to be unable to react to an unexpected terrain change, a badger hole, stick in the eye, etc. if they are full tilt. Also, if a dog is running that fast, he is going to miss more birds. I'm not saying he won't find a ton, but he is going to run by more than a dog with equal nose would at a slower speed, hunting slightly more methodically. I realize that it is all relative to the competition, but is there a point when someone says this dog is so fast that he is reckless to the point of it being a negative quality? Let me also state, I'm not talking about running away, just the increase in run speed.

I have witnessed my dogs run by birds that they normally nail, and it is almost always the scenario. I pull up to a spot, and let my dogs out. They haven't been out in 2-3 days and want to stretch their legs. At this point they are running over 15 mph. Probably more like 20. This is when they run past birds that they normally do not. After about 10 minutes they fall into a nice "medium" hunting pace. They are still moving quickly, just paying attention more, and not worried about running full tilt. I actually have a friend that does this with his EPs before he hunts them in Kansas. He finds a prairie trail, and gets 150 yards ahead of his dogs. When he says so I let them go, and they chase his truck. He will go down the trail for about 2 miles or so, and then throw them into the truck, and pick me up. He started doing that for the same reason. Now, these dogs are running over 20 mph for that 2 miles. I mean they are running as fast as possible. Another friend of mine, who has killed more pheasants than anyone I know, will purposely hunt a piece of public "not as good" ground before he hits his "honey hole" spots. He wants to take the edge off of them.

I am in no way insinuating that an AA dog should not be high powered, they should. I don't want to own a lazy slow dog myself. I'm just saying is there ever a limit? NASCAR put restricter plates on cars to slow them down, will FTers ever say this is fast enough?

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:40 am

dudleysmith wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:Good Grief Charlie Brown.....Lucy holds the football....another time...and you take a run at it.
What does that mean?

He means that I am antagonizing people on a topic that has been run through the ringer. I'm not, but that is how he views it. Apparently, AA dogs are perfect, FTs are run flawlessly, breeders never make mistakes, and if someone has the audacity to want to discuss issues about them it makes him uncomfortable. He will say "I just don't want to waste time", "I've been through this before." Spouting the same exact formulated answers, instead of answering with honest scientific method. There seems to be no tolerance for thinking outside of the box. I'm not threatening anyone's knowledge, but some interpret it that way. The smartest people realize that they can learn from anyone, and that they know very little. I know I learn from many on this forum. Some know it all already, and are above these pitiful discussions.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:24 am

The problem is that you don't like the answers, so you restructure the same question and post it. I don't mind playing along because I'm a dog trainer and I know that eventually repetition will win out, even over the most hardheaded of critters.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:33 am

The original post begs the question of whether in some dogs, due solely to genetics, it is not possible to get a handle on too much run (power & speed). That question can be discussed but cannot really be answered definitively because there are too many variables beyond genetics that affect the end result.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:59 pm

Yawallac wrote:
Ross, in all honesty, how many days per year do you hunt wild birds?
300+

:roll:

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:42 pm

Nothing here that most of us don't know. I appreciated the comments on dogs injuring themselves and wholeheartedly agree. I have seen more than a few dogs that have punctured themselves from what I call reckless searching. A friends bitch has punctured herself 3 times in the chest, the last time put a finger sized piece of wood through her lung. I had a litter years back where half the litter suffered punctures, broken bones, etc from just too much desire ..IMO.

The one thing that occurs to me with this discussion is who are such dogs being bred for? the pro trainer? I guess as long as you don't put them in the wrong hands it can work out. Good thing the price of GPS is coming down.

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:23 pm

What is the average garmin speed for 1 hour on horseback shooting dogs?
What is the average garmin speed for 1 hour on AA dogs?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:00 pm

The fastest dogs are rarely the top All-Age winners, and for certain not at the Ames National Championship.

As with a hunting dog, it is not how fast they go, but where they go, and what they do with their nose when they get there.

Since the Garmin is not to be turned on in competition, I can't answer which is faster - SD or A-A, and since dogs are often much faster in competition than a work out, don't know if that would be an answer either.

My personal observation is that the SD is a bit faster, but will loop and hang-up some in likely cover, whereas the A-A will not be quite as fast but will stay on a line longer and go I bit further before looping back to the front. But as someone said, it is such a gray line between the two, that it would be hard to call.

But there is so much more to an All-Age dog than speed, or even range, that it is of no significance which is the fastest.

And to answer the question, if they can find birds, I can't see anyone culling a dog because it is too fast.

Neil

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:37 pm

I judge alot of AA, the biggest difference between dogs is the way they run. Some of the so called fast dogs are more animated than others. The dogs today they want speed, but they're not really going any faster. An AA dog had better handle and find birds and be honest, not coming from the rear but going to the front. Some of the renegade dogs like Spek and some others it's lucky to just find them. Run off dogs are not AA, but just run offs. I've got several different styles of dogs. Some look like they're flying and others just flat cover ground and do with less effort. And yes I foot hunt all these dogs and kill birds.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:59 pm

Any dog that has any physical injury because it is moving, is going too fast because theoretically it could be always be going slower or just standing still or sitting and would not get injured. I guess for all the high powered & low powered dogs you'd have to have some statistic related to injuries per mile covered or injuries per each type of birds found.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:48 pm

I use to move alot faster then I do now but I'm injured more now!! Go figure!!

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:56 am

I use to move alot faster then I do now but I'm injured more now!! Go figure!!

Amen to that Ted!!

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:32 am

Birddogz wrote:Is there ever a point that a dog runs too fast and hard? Is there a limit? I ask this question, because I have often wondered if a dog can have too much octane. I know that AA dogs need go, but is there ever a point where it is too much? I'm asking FT guys, and I don't know the answer. I can only say that for a foot hunter there is a point of diminishing returns. Will that ever happen in FTs?

It ain't so much about speed. It has more to do with application. A true all age dog is going where it thinks it has the best chance to find birds, some are going way in there deep to find the birds. Some of the speedy little dogs are done pretty quick.

Mo

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:16 am

Birdogz -

Just say thank you to the All age guys and shut the heck up!

The true all age dog is the repository for the grit, the endurance, the bottom, the unquenchable desire to find birds...that the all day birdhunter prizes.

The reason they run so far, so fast and so hard is because their genetic makeup drives them to do just that and their owners, trainers and handlers develop and encourage those traits so as to maintain that repository of desire and the endurance it spawns.

When you breed to those kinds of dogs you very rarely get the same level of those traits. It is called the drag of breeding. The smart breeder uses those All Age traits and chooses a mate which complements and rounds out those traits. The idea usually is to keep the grit and endurance and blend in biddability, style and pattern.

You sound like one of those self righteous and self important GSP fanciers that are upset because the breed has changed. Good God man, get over it. It is what it is and it ain't goin' back the other way.

If you don't like or want all age breeding...don't buy it and leave it at that.

I like and want a LOT of all age breeding in my dogs because I value what the all age dog brings to the breeding equation. I for one resent the heck out of some self appointed jerk who wants to tell me what I should like and what I shouldn't.

We won't even get into the supercilious BS about wild birds being the be all and end all in evaluating bird dogs, except to say that I have NEVER seen a dog that was trained and consistent on planted birds go WACKO and come all unglued when exposed to wild birds the way a whole bunch of "sho 'nuff wild bird dogs did, that couldn't take the pressures that planted birds put a dog under.

I have hunted both and it is far, far easier on the dog when there is one source of scent(one covey or one or two bunches of phez) in a twenty or forty acre parcel...and it is fresh and untainted...compared to a dozen or more sources of scent incuding piles of feathers, blood and assorted bird parts from a previous hunt on that same twenty to forty acres mixed in with the half dozen birds that were just released by a guide who had to put down their cigarette to plant the bird.

You really need to get over the fact that not everyone shares your opnion and that there are those who even dare to disagree with it.

RayG

kbshorthairs · Post by **kbshorthairs** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:31 am

you tell 'em RayG....

(I did have to look up a couple of those words though.)

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:18 am

Birddogz wrote:I had a friend in N. Wisconsin that had a high powered grouse dog.Short hair. It was a great dog, without a doubt. The dog actually freakishly impaled himself on a beaver chewed tree, and died due to the injury. Now, I know that was a freak injury, but I can't help but wondering if his high powered nature didn't contribute to the accident. My point is a person, dog, antelope, deer, etc. is going to be unable to react to an unexpected terrain change, a badger hole, stick in the eye, etc. if they are full tilt. Also, if a dog is running that fast, he is going to miss more birds.

I'll take a fast moving dog over a more methodical moving dog any day of the week when it comes to grouse. I'll also take a wider ranging dog over a close working dog. You really need to see a fast agile field trial dog navigate in the woods. Any dog can get impailed by a stick in the grouse woods. I believe it has more to do with the agility of the dog than the speed. My lab who isn't close to the speed of a cover dog field trial dog in the woods, has had more injuries due to seeds in the eyes or being poked by a stick than all the fast moving dogs I've hunted behind.

As far as a fast moving dog missing more birds that has not been my experience. In fact my experience has been the complete opposite. The best grouse dog (soon to be the second best after the way my setter's first two seasons have gone

) I've ever hunted behind is a field trial dog. Another field trial dog (not mine) I know well is nearly as good and is one of the fastest dogs I've ever watched in the woods. I was at a field trial this fall where a young shooting dog had 10 finds in less than an hour.

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:32 pm

Best bet is to hunt behind a Basset Hound. They never outrun their noses, and rarely need to have beaver-chewed sticks pulled out of them. It's also a good idea never to run a dog in any event where he would be subjected to evaluation by anyone other than you. Much easier on the ego.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:36 pm

I found my fast running dog like this on point two weeks ago ... barbed wire in the sage that would have got a basset hound as easily as a Brittany...

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:51 pm

Look, my dogs are fast moving. They also get cut by barbed wire. I'm simply saying that there is a point of too much octane. I coach, and I have kids that are like this, they get so pumped up that they turn the ball over, and make mistakes. Having a dog that is on task and under control is my point.

CK,
I don't need a judge to tell me I have good dogs. I just need to look at my freezer.

I have hunted for right at 30 years, and put in more days afield than 99% of hunters. I know a good dog from a bad one. I also know that dogs that win in FTs aren't always great meat dogs. Some are, some are not. So testy lately. You need to enjoy life.

If discussing dogs angers you, don't post.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:59 pm

Birddogz wrote: I also know that dogs that win in FTs aren't always great meat dogs. Some are, some are not.

Please post how you know this, anyone can type anything, proof please......

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:03 pm

Birddogz wrote:I'm simply saying that there is a point of too much octane.

Exactly, there may be a point of too much octane FOR YOU. Leave it at that and let those of us with octane to burn, use it. My EP has it to burn and when we got a handle on her she is became a "fun car to drive"! Key to your post is to get a handle on the dog so you can use them - Octane or not. I choose Octane!

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:04 pm

birddog1968 wrote:
Birddogz wrote: I also know that dogs that win in FTs aren't always great meat dogs. Some are, some are not.
Please post how you know this, anyone can type anything, proof please......

I've hunted with them on numerous occasions. I was almost kicked out of my hunting party in SD because a friend of mine brought his FT dogs and they ruined a few great fields. Now, those dogs were fantastic wild quail dogs, just not phez. They could have been, but they weren't.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:06 pm

Birddogz wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:
Birddogz wrote: I also know that dogs that win in FTs aren't always great meat dogs. Some are, some are not.
Please post how you know this, anyone can type anything, proof please......
I've hunted with them on numerous occasions. I was almost kicked out of my hunting party in SD because a friend of mine brought his FT dogs and they ruined a few great fields. Now, those dogs were fantastic wild quail dogs, just not phez. They could have been, but they weren't.

So you base your broad statement on a couple of dogs......goodness knows who, where, what and at what level they compete at....super broad generalization.

Ive seen V dogs, and DD's that look like they are takin a dump on point, should I infer that your dog appears the same?

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:18 pm

Please post how you know this, anyone can type anything, proof please......[/quote]

I've hunted with them on numerous occasions. I was almost kicked out of my hunting party in SD because a friend of mine brought his FT dogs and they ruined a few great fields. Now, those dogs were fantastic wild quail dogs, just not phez. They could have been, but they weren't.[/quote]

So you base your broad statement on a couple of dogs......goodness knows who, where, what and at what level they compete at....super broad generalization.

Ive seen V dogs, and DD's that look like they are takin a dump on point, should I infer that your dog appears the same?[/quote]

I agree, some look awful on point, and some suck in the field too. I'll readily admit there are no perfect dogs. I don't mind criticism, I see it as honesty. I'm lucky, my DD has style for a DD. 11 o'clock tail. Not the best, but nice.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:41 pm

Birddogz wrote: I've hunted with them on numerous occasions. I was almost kicked out of my hunting party in SD because a friend of mine brought his FT dogs and they ruined a few great fields. Now, those dogs were fantastic wild quail dogs, just not phez. They could have been, but they weren't.

What's your definition of a FT dog? A dog with an FC 3 generations back or a dog that's either an FC or at least has FT broke dog placements and is actively being campaigned on the circuit?

How many Field Champions (or AF Champions) have you hunted over? How many AKC Master Hunters and NAVHDA UTI or VC dogs have you hunted over?

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:53 pm

Birddogz wrote:: If discussing dogs angers you, don't post.

Perhaps you could adopt that philosophy in your own posts. If you don't like trials, don't enter them. If some breeds are not up to your level of hunting, don't own them.

Given the amount of time you spend hunting in howling blizzards, braving thirty-below temps and those gawd-awful cattails, all while slaughtering more birds than 99% of us, how do you find time to compose so many inane, annoying, and redundant posts?

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:15 pm

Birdogz -

Y'all need to be fair about this stuff. A dog that is accustomed to one type of game in one part of the country, might not look quite so proficient on another type of game altogether in a different part of the country.

Given a bit of a chance to acclimate itself to the new surrounding and new bird, a good bird dog will make the transition, more often than not.

Wild pheasants run out from under a dog's point if given half a chance. That takes a bit of getting used to for a covey dog.

A bunch of years ago, I took two dogs up to the Appalachian area of NY state to hunt for aguided hunt on grouse. The one dog had never seen a wild bird, in its entire 5 year life, and the other, older dog, had not seen a wild bird since she was a youngster, and that was Florida quail, before she washed out of field trial training.

Anyhow, we cut them loose on a loggng trail and listened for the bells. Every so often the bells would fall silent for a minute and then resume. When we saw the dogs come back around for us, I noticed that they(especilly the younger one) were making game, fairly frequently, in spots that seemed to be roosting or sunning spots. I saw feathers in several spots.

This went on all day and we saw zero grouse or woodcock. In the evening of the first day the older dog locked upand the younger dog backed. A woodcock went up and my son scratched it down. That was pretty much the end of day 1.

On day 2 we hunted a different area and I changed out the younger dog's bell for a beeper so I could hear it better. About an hour into the hunt the beeper went off. We went to the sound and there were both dogs, pointing and backing. A grouse was raised and again, my son was able to scratch it down. That was the first of about a dozen productive points on grouse that day. Day 3 was pretty much a replay of day 2 with a good bunch of productive points on grouse.

The dogs(probably mostly the younger one as he was a real hard charger) had figured out that these birds simply would not be crowded.

The point of the story is this: On day one the dogs looked like horse dung. Once they figured out how to handle these new birds and the new terrain(heavy, dense fir stands with blowdowns) ...they did just fine.

Wild phez, in open country can make even a good, experienced dog look bad sometimes. We know that. If a dog does not have the chance to get acclimated to the new game, it is not going to look all that great... ESPECIALLY on a dog that runs the way a phez does. Given a chance to figure out the new challenge, most good bird dogs will do just fine.

RayG

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:21 pm

Birddogz wrote:Look, my dogs are fast moving. They also get cut by barbed wire. I'm simply saying that there is a point of too much octane. I coach, and I have kids that are like this, they get so pumped up that they turn the ball over, and make mistakes. Having a dog that is on task and under control is my point.

If you think field trial dogs have too much octane then I doubt your definition of fast moving is the same as mine.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:17 pm

What is funny is that I have 2 very good friends that guide Ruff hunts more than 45 days a year. I also have friends that own wild pheasant lodges. I also talk to trainers that some of you use. When I talk to them they seem to side with me on most topics that are greatly debated on here. One trainer actually said that the reason an all AA dog runs so far is he can't find any birds close.

Now I don't say that, but it just seems like when I'm talking to people who hunt for a living they tend to agree with me. I don't understand why all the turmoil over what seems to be common sense.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:54 pm

they are of course unnamed, while Maurice with his more than impeccable credentials has posted here for all to see..
hmmm?

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:59 pm

I think it is funny how everyone says (and I am guilty of it too)......"I have a friend who does it this way so it must be right, I have a trainer who said this so it must be right"

If I had a friend who was a vet, would you trust me to spay your dog?

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:08 pm

No but I'm sure you'd be more than happy to tell the vet all that they were doing wrong cause you do know one vet and they said......

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:18 pm

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:No but I'm sure you'd be more than happy to tell the vet all that they were doing wrong cause you do know one vet and they said......

An average vet isn't good enough; needs to be one that can work at -30* temps with 6' snow drifts.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:12 pm

Yeah I was a Roofer till I got TOO broke down to do it anymore but you would be surprised at how many people told me I was doing it wrong & how & why I was doing it wrong.I would tell them yeah ok but call me when your roof leaks after I'm done & I will come back & fix it at my expense.
I know this has nothing to do with bird dogs but my point is there is always some one that knows more about what your doing then you do even though they may have never done it before.
They would say something like I roofed a dog house once !

Sorry I'm just amusing myself.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:12 pm

I'm sitting here chuckling...because the number of people who want...or who can cope with..... a high octane dog is small. In my 40 years of hunting and training dogs, I have seen far more owner/handlers frustrated by too much dog, than I have seen frustrated by not enough dog. Don't know who y'all are breeding dogs for, but I think the real world for the most part is a lot different than you want to admit. I watch every year as good young dogs never reach their potential or young dogs that are thoroughly in control of the owner.

I have hunted birds from Arizona to ND to Saskatchewan, Maine, NY State and I can say unequivocally that most birds I have been able to GET a shot at have been pointed by dogs within 200 yds of me. The percentage of sharpies (after the juveniles are shot), grouse, pheasant, Gambels, etc that have been willing to sit there while I walked the 2-500 yds to get there is maybe 25%. Y'all must have much better dogs than a I do....or the birds are a lot dumber

A dog that points 500 yds away takes 5-6 minutes to walk to @ 4 miles/hr. A dog 100 yds away takes 10-12 minutes (after you find the dog). There are very few sharpies that sit there while you approach for 10 minutes....and that's a lot of walkin to see birds lift off before you get there.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:24 pm

JKP wrote: A dog that points 500 yds away takes 5-6 minutes to walk to @ 4 miles/hr. A dog 100 yds away takes 10-12 minutes (after you find the dog). There are very few sharpies that sit there while you approach for 10 minutes....and that's a lot of walkin to see birds lift off before you get there.

You are right they don't all hold, but neither do the ones pointed 75 yards away.

But you don't have to hunt from foot, many of us use horses or ATV's, I have used a K-Mule since 1996. It seems that the sound of a motor in a field does not spook most birds, I think they are used to tractors and farmers/ranchers feeding from trucks. And a dog moving fast often sneaks up on them, if the hunter is silent or 600 yards away.

It is the slamming of doors and the sounds of humans that seems to send them off.

But like you say, it is not 100%.

Neil

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:31 pm

Neil,
Where I hunt, you could never get an ATV to go....horses on the hillsides in the NY state grouse woods would be impossible. How does that work in chukar country in Idaho? or in Hornpayne, Canada in the endless pine tree cutovers?

Not trying to give you a hard time, but your response points out again how these dogs are well suited to certain conditions but not so to others. You neglected my concern that most owner/handlers are not up to many of these dogs.

Just so you understand...I don't think there are many bad dogs..its more a question of finding the right match.