EP, what sort of breeding to look for & why ?

[Ditch__Parrot]

I'm just going to drop this off here. Probably won't have much time to post over the next few days but I'll be checking in from time to time. Hopefully someone can give me some things to think about over the holiday. Have a good Thanksgiving everyone.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Alright I'm looking for a bit of help. I've started thinking about my next dog. Now don't get me wrong I won't be looking to pick up this pup a week from now, more like a year from now. Now obviously I'm a bit lost as I've started thinking that a long tailed pup might play into the picture here. So I'm basically looking for some recommendations for types of breeding to look for. Or even specific breeding's to look at even if they don't fit my time frame.

I'm also or more importantly looking for the why. Why would a certain breeding or type of breeding be a good match for me ? Why wouldn't another ?

OK so what am I looking for? First and foremost the things I'd consider to be common sense but sometimes that isn't so common. I want a healthy dog. Not predisposed to any major genetic defects, good healthy bone and joint structure, an awe inspiring gait, good teeth, mentally sound, a nice specimen of the breed (though I am not interested in any show lines of pointers!!!). Anything I missed here.

More specifically. This will be a hunting dog. If I manage to get the time to do any trials or pay to have someone take my dog to a trial; It will be my hunting dog that's running a trial or two in it's spare time. Hunting will consist of primarily Quail and Pheasant, with a small dose of chickens, woodcock, prairie grouse thrown in. Possibly even a little chasing rail and snipe. And it shouldn't be surprised if it's expected to retrieve an early season teal or a dove though that would be a secondary concern.
Certain things will be very important to me.

Very strong pointing instinct.

Very good nose

Very strong pointing instinct

Stamina to spare.

Very strong pointing instinct

biddable, easy to train, a joy to work with, handle easily.

able to withstand some pressure in training, and maybe even take a couple amateur training mistakes in stride.

loves kids

good with other dogs

calm indoors

I'm looking for a smart dog, and one that will hunt with and for me adjusting range depending on cover. I am looking for a dog that is ready, willing and able to stretch its legs when the opportunity presents itself. I don't mind seeing a dog get out and move making big casts as long as it is still hunting for me and the situation calls for it.

Early maturing.

Female most likely, Not a big female either. I'd rather have a smallish dog than a brute.

I will say for now that I am looking at wanting to breed this pup when it gets older. Not really though, I'm not looking to become a dog breeder. Not at all actually and I won't breed her unless I think I would be better satisfied with a pup out of her for my next dog a few years down the line than anything I could buy from someone else at the time. That said I want to be so thrilled with this dog that I just have to have one of her get and she should be a good dog to be bred just in case. If that makes sense.

Reserving the right to modify or add too that list. I think it's a good place to start though. What am I missing. Where have I gone off the tracks, except the tail length part that part I already know LOL.



Ha, so ya I'm looking for the perfect dog. If they can fold laundry do the dishes and handle a few other things off the honey do list while I'm at work that would help too.

Help point me in the right direction to get started in my search.

[Chukar12]

Robert Wehle is singing Elhew from above ... in Snakefoot he desribes that his years of line breeding were meant to achieve most if not all of whet you seek. That is .02 from a Brittany person, but there are lot's of pointer people who will know the specific dogs/kennels of the day I venture.

[ymepointer]

I can only say Bob Welhe strived to produce such dogs, while most field bred pointers are going to meet all your functional requirements, I can't say all will meet your physical "good teeth and representative of the breed" stuff. Even Bob Welhe started with some bite issues which he endeavored to breed out, but most FDSB pointer breeders I know are not very concerned about the looks of there dogs once you get much north of the root of there tail towards the head
See this link for more info on that...

http://superiorpointers.com/bite.html

http://superiorpointers.com/pdf/Wehle_on_breeding.pdf


Miller dogs in general (at least the ones I have owned) have pretty good teeth in general perhaps a butt bite here and there but none of mine ever had any wry mouths or undershot/overshot mouths, but they are highly variable in the looks department other than they are mostly white and the tails are prett straight. I would pick a Elhew/Miller or elhew/eaton Cross and just check the teeth on the pup you purchase(as well as the parents if possible) or tell the breeder you Must have nice teeth...

[Yawallac]

Yeah, the bite is really important.

[Yawallac]

EP people seem the minority when it comes to the concern of breeding stock having good bites.

That's because it's meaningless.

[birddog1968]

Fiddler/Rebel with a little Miller thrown in......I think you get a shot at the best of just about everything in pointer lines with that kinda cross.

My mostly Miller dogs have shown themselves to be smart, hard hunters with good noses and sound minds able to adapt perfectly to indoor life.

[Yawallac]

Pointers are bred for performance ...only. A bite that does not negatively impact its ability to eat, has zero effect on its ability to hunt. While we strive to breed Pointers with proper bites, we will not exclude a dog with a marginally bad bite from our breeding program because imo, a bad bite is completely cosmetic. We want to produce bird dogs, not show dogs.

[Chukar12]

by Yawallac

That's because it's meaningless

Really? It has nothing to do with breathing...or it doesn't foul them up when they are ripping flesh from a downed wildebeast? What about getting a date, they are stuck with the other wall flower EP's?

Ok but seriously, it makes no difference to anything performance or health wise?

[birddog1968]

The barn burning'ist dog I ever owned was from the man (Wehle) that supposedly tried to breed away from bad bite, and his bite was terrible (like a boxer).

It certainly had no bearing of performance as he could lay flames to the ground and go all day, and had a nose to be proud of.......He was a little hard headed but that was probably the bird dog guard rail in him.

Smoke...

[Yawallac]

Ok but seriously, it makes no difference to anything performance or health wise?

I'm talking about a marginally bad bite, not something that will effect its ability to chew food. If a dog is slightly undershot, I won't lose much sleep over it because it will not have any effect on the dog's performance in the field. All that nonsense about a dam not being able to cut the pup's cord because it doesn't have a scissors bite simply hasn't seen many litters whelped because most dams chew through the umbilical cord with their premolars.

But to answer the question posted... any reputable Pointer breeder will be able to provide a prospect capable. The specific line means much less than you think.

[Yawallac]

He was a little hard headed but that was probably the bird dog guard rail in him.

Gene says that Guard Rail wasn't a hard-headed dog at all ...but that Rail Dancer was the hardest-headed dog he ever saw!

HOFer Gene Casale and I co-own this dog and Gene was sitting next to me in the Mule ...and that's HOFer John Ray Kimbrell flushing a covey of TN Reds. (How cool was my day today!? )

Here's what the poster should look for in a Pointer.

Caladen's Railway Max - final tune-up before the SC Shooting Dog Championship this weekend.

[ezzy333]

Pointers are bred for performance ...only. A bite that does not negatively impact its ability to eat, has zero effect on its ability to hunt. While we strive to breed Pointers with proper bites, we will not exclude a dog with a marginally bad bite from our breeding program because imo, a bad bite is completely cosmetic. We want to produce bird dogs, not show dogs.

So of course this app;ies to the tail as well!!!!!!!! Pointer people breed just like everyone else. Bite is cosmetic but tail carriage is really really important. Thik you are confused on which end of the dog is cosmetic.

Ezzy

[Yawallac]

So of course this app;ies to the tail as well!!!!!!!!

Touche

[Yawallac]

Ross, Good Luck to ya buddy!!! Will you be handling your charge?

Thanks Howie.

Here is the draw! Can't wait!!

Poster might be able to find something worth feeding from this bunch!!
http://thefieldtrialer.com/forum/viewto ... 640#p10640

[up-hunter]

Nice draw there ross

I think the question that most people should ask is what breedings ussually produce the easiest handling dogs?

[Yawallac]

I think the question that most people should ask is what breedings ussually produce the easiest handling dogs?

I thought I answered that ...Guard Rail.

[tommyboy72]

I like the crosses that Birddog 1968 mentioned as well. Rebel, Miller, and Fiddler lines. I have been looking more and more at the Crows Little Joe lines and have heard great things about them. I believe the next dog I buy or that is not of my own breeding will be a CLJ dog most likely a Crows Little Joe/ Honky Tonk Attitude cross of some kind but that is going to be sometime down the road if you are reading this Ron.

[Ditch__Parrot]

Thank you for the replies.

Didn't realize stating I would like a dog with good teeth could be controversial. Funny I was actually meaning teeth when I wrote that and had overlooked bite. A good bite would be nice and I would prefer it in a pup, marginally bad bites of dogs on the pedigree could be overlooked to an extent as long as their is plenty of other positves to help me overlook it. I realize there is no such thing as a perfect dog. I was just describing things I would be looking for. I wasn't meaning to come off as picky or anything more just trying to be descriptive and make a little better help request post than "Help, I'm thinking about getting a pointer"

By good teeth I literally meant good canine dental health in dogs on the pedigree. Tooth loss, abscess, infections that sort of thing. A history of such things would send me looking elsewhere.

By "good representative of the breed stuff" . That is just my way of saying I want a nice looking pointer. Yep I know looks don't hunt but I want my cake and to eat it too.

With the recomendations of Elhew can you be more specific. I'm very new to looking into the Pointer world and even the recomendation of Elhew/Miller cross doesn't get me far. What specific example of a Elhew/Miller cross would be a recomendation ?

But to answer the question posted... any reputable Pointer breeder will be able to provide a prospect capable. The specific line means much less than you think.

A good dog is a good dog is a good dog. I take it that is sort of what you mean and that I should be looking for info on good reputable breeders rather than good lines of pointers.

Here's what the poster should look for in a Pointer.

Caladen's Railway Max - final tune-up before the SC Shooting Dog Championship this weekend.

Now that's specific advice, I like it. Great looking dog. So who is he out of ? How did you choose the breeding ? Was there consistency in the litter ? What else can you tell me about how he is bred ?

So in no specific order the suggestions so far. Any more suggestions out there ? Something a little more specific maybe ? Or any more info on what has been suggested would be appreciated.

Crows Little Joe/ Honky Tonk Attitude

Elhew/Miller

Elhew/Eaton

Fiddler/Rebel/Miller

Guard Rail

Also to be clear I am after a dog with some wheels, I just want a dog smart enough to figure out when and how to use them.


Thanks for the help.

[BoJack]

"Gene says that Guard Rail wasn't a hard-headed dog at all ..."

That's not the way George Tracy tells it.At Gene's age maybe he has his dogs mixed up?

[Yawallac]

That's not the way George Tracy tells it.At Gene's age maybe he has his dogs mixed up?

I love George and he handles several of our dogs, but I believe that George was born under the "Blarney stone".

Fact is that Gene put half of the six Championships on Guard Rail (including AA) and he never lost him once in a trial ....ever.

BUT!!! Guard Rail bred dogs tend to be one man dogs. That is important to understand.

[Yawallac]

Ditch,

Max had a point today in the pineywoods at the SC Open Shooting Dog Championship that they may write poems about. The sun glistened off his shiney white coat as the broomstraw bent gently in the breeze ...ahhhhhhhh. What a find! (two finds later his youth took over and he ripped a bird!! )

That was the first brace. In the third brace, Max's littermate brother Cooper (Caladen's Bimbo Jones) was braced with his half brother Rocky (Ch. Caladen's Sawmill Struttin). Luke Eisenhart runs Cooper and Mike Tracy runs Rocky. The two hadn't seen each other since they left me late summer (dogs that is, not Mike and Luke ). They looked at each other at the breakaway ...and that was the last any of us saw of them!!

In the sixth brace the mother to all three ran, Caladen Elhew Sarah. Sarah broke away ....and she was gone!!!

Not a great day for the Caladen kennel, but that's field trialing!

We have two entries left to run, my avatar, Jack (Caladen's Rail Hawk) and Ace (Caladen's White Hawk). They both run on Tuesday. BTW, I'm sitting in my horse trailer on the grounds, enjoying an adult beverage and plucking at my keyboard! Isn't technology great!?!?

[tommyboy72]

I talked to a good buddy of mine today down in Amarillo who trials and he said if you are going to go with a Miller cross to look for a direct son or daughter of a Miller champion or a grandson or granddaughter of Millers Silver Bullet because there are so many Miller champions out there right now that anyone can get a grandson or granddaughter of a Miller champion. The Miller champions are just so numerous. So I guess look for some close up Millers Silver Bullet. I have another buddy up in Kansas who is looking to breed a double bred Millers Dateline male and if you could find a granddaughter of Millers Silver Bullet bred to a dog like that, who was double bred Millers Dateline, then that might also be something to look for. I do know he is not real fond of the Elhew dogs but he told me he just purchased a couple of Sinbad dogs who are real stylish so you might look for something going back to Elhew Sinbad. He also mentioned dogs going back to Barshoe Brute so you might also look there. He is a horseback field trialer and has always told me he did not like the Elhew dogs because they were too soft and tempremental. If he purchase something out of Sinbad then they must be real nice dogs that he sees something special in. He is just one of my go to guys on breeding so take it for what it is worth but I trust him.

[Yawallac]

Is Elhew Sinbad an Elhew dog?

[Birddogz]

Tail is important, but a 12 tail isn't really any better than an 11, or 10. Bite? If it doesn't interfere with consumption of food, I say who gives a bleep. Performance is key, period. I'd rather have an ugly good bird finder than a perfect looking dog that doesn't hunt as well. Let's not become West Minster. Good dogs are more important than appearance. Now if a dog produces dogs that can't eat, that is a problem. Bird finding "uglies" are welcome over perfect looking idiots. Perfect looking, and perfect performing is the goal, but let us not stray from the "real" purpose of a bird dog.

[Yawallac]

but a 12 tail isn't really any better than an 11, or 10.

In the broomstraw that we hunted today, a 12 oclock tail was FAR SUPERIOR to an 11 or 10 oclock tail. Couldn't have found a 10 oclock tailed dog in most of the cover.

[Birddogz]

but a 12 tail isn't really any better than an 11, or 10.

In the broomstraw that we hunted today, a 12 oclock tail was FAR SUPERIOR to an 11 or 10 oclock tail. Couldn't have found a 10 oclock tailed dog in most of the cover.

Ross, I hear you, but the Astro has made all of that obsolete. I can't tell you the difference the Astro has made in my bird hunting. I no longer have to worry about anything. The Astro beeps me when my dogs are on point. I literally enjoy hunting far more since I bought one. No worries to my kids that a dog doesn't come home. If they get hung in a fence, a snare trap, leg hold, etc. I don't have to worry. The Astro has allowed me to consider the "layering" of bird dogs. I would never have felt comfortable letting a dog run big without one. Losing a dog to me is like losing a friend. I'm sure that Astros aren't legal when running FTs, but they are worth their weight in gold to me, and make my hunting SOOOO much more enjoyable. Now, I just wait for the beep and go kill the bird. No sound, perfect stealth. I think it is the most important bird hunting tool since the E- collar, and probably even more important.

[birddog1968]

Also to be clear I am after a dog with some wheels, I just want a dog smart enough to figure out when and how to use them.


Thanks for the help.

With that last statement and picture I would be looking for Miller or Rebel breeding.....or a cross of the same.

[BoJack]

"Fact is that Gene put half of the six Championships on Guard Rail (including AA) and he never lost him once in a trial ....ever."

Maybe all that #9 shot George had to pepper him with finally put a lilttle more handle on him.George stated that in an interview with one of the bird dog publications,one of the older issues of Field Trial magazine I believe,I have it somwhere.Also written in print in the same issue or another one or publication is as time went on Guardrail would just keep runnng and running and running til he ran out of the country and contention.Looking for Gene?
But he was a producer,can't take it away from him.Good luck with the remaining dogs in the Championship.It ain't over till it's over.

[tommyboy72]

Ross you have me on that one. I, personally, am not familiar with Sinbad's breeding but according to my buddy and I quote "He is Elhew in name only." I will defer to the experts on that one of which I know you know your bloodlines and so does my buddy. If you guys say he Elhew in name only I will take your word for it.

[dudleysmith]

Elhew sinbad dad's pedigree

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2466

[tn red]

Sinbads bottom side
http://www.summitpointfarms.netkennel.c ... lhew+Swami

[Yawallac]

Maybe all that #9 shot George had to pepper him with finally put a lilttle more handle on him.

Nothing special about that, George peppers most all his dogs with number #9 shot. George handles our Guard Rail bred dogs and loses them too. Gene never lost Guard Rail in a trial and I have never lost any of ours in a trial either. Heck, Mike hasn't gotten my Guard Rail bred dog Jack around w/o losing him in 6 trials this fall! ...and I put a NAVHDA title on him!! Point is that Guard Rail bred dogs tend to be one man dogs. Personally, I like that. They are tough and they are loyal. And if you are their "one man" they will go to he11 and back for you.

[dudleysmith]

Maybe all that #9 shot George had to pepper him with finally put a lilttle more handle on him.

Nothing special about that, George peppers most all his dogs with number #9 shot. George handles our Guard Rail bred dogs and loses them too. Gene never lost Guard Rail in a trial and I have never lost any of ours in a trial either. Heck, Mike hasn't gotten my Guard Rail bred dog Jack around w/o losing him in 6 trials this fall! ...and I put a NAVHDA title on him!! Point is that Guard Rail bred dogs tend to be one man dogs. Personally, I like that. They are tough and they are loyal. And if you are their "one man" they will go to he11 and back for you.

Let the right people get ahold of this and all hexx will break loose

[tailcrackin]

Tommyboy, sent ya a pm. Thanks Jonesy

[ElhewPointer]

Well, i'll put my .02 in. Obviously im a fan of Elhew bred dogs. They've been very good to me first as a hunter and then as field trial dogs. What is funny is the same EXACT things this post first started with looking for is what I was looking for. This is not with blinders on either. I've had and currently have dogs that aren't primarly Elhew bred and to me they aren't the dogs that my Elhew bred dogs are/were. I seemed to have WAY less health/comformation issues with my Elhew bred dogs. I know "most" don't care about certain comformation issues, but some, including myself do look at these things. To each his own. The Elhew bred dogs that I had met all those criteria you are looking for.

Vagas

[Yawallac]

Crows Little Joe/ Honky Tonk Attitude cross of some kind but that is going to be sometime down the road if you are reading this Ron.

Truest words in the post.

I prefer that my dogs live more than five years.

[Yawallac]

"Would you prefer a great dog for five years or a mediocre dog for ten?"

Scott Miller on HTA bred dogs and cancer.

[tommyboy72]

So are you saying the CLJ dogs are likely to develop cancer at an early age? I haven't heard this before. Please elaborate.

[dudleysmith]

So are you saying the CLJ dogs are likely to develop cancer at an early age? I haven't heard this before. Please elaborate.

he is saying HTA not CLJ

[Yawallac]

So are you saying the CLJ dogs are likely to develop cancer at an early age? I haven't heard this before. Please elaborate.

I know nothing about Crow's Little Joe, but I have removed all HTA from our kennel.

[birddog1968]

I have an Veterinary medicine journal that states that 60 percent of all dogs over 8 die of one form of cancer or another.
environmental sources probably play a large role in some cancers found in dogs.

Without proof that a hereditary form of cancer runs in certain lines its all here say and uneducated guessing......

[ezzy333]

Tail is important, but a 12 tail isn't really any better than an 11, or 10. Bite? If it doesn't interfere with consumption of food, I say who gives a bleep. Performance is key, period. I'd rather have an ugly good bird finder than a perfect looking dog that doesn't hunt as well. Let's not become West Minster. Good dogs are more important than appearance. Now if a dog produces dogs that can't eat, that is a problem. Bird finding "uglies" are welcome over perfect looking idiots. Perfect looking, and perfect performing is the goal, but let us not stray from the "real" purpose of a bird dog.

The assumption I always get when I read something like this is you can't have both and I refuse to believe that. It is just as easy to find a good looking dog that hunts as an ugly one. If I have to look at it everyday then it better be good looking as it is just as cheap to feed a good one as an ugly one. I refuse to settle for an ugly one just because it hunts when there are so many good looking ones that hunt just as well.

Ezzy

[dan v]

I have an Veterinary medicine journal that states that 60 percent of all dogs over 8 die of one form of cancer or another.
environmental sources probably play a large role in some cancers found in dogs.

Without proof that a hereditary form of cancer runs in certain lines its all here say and uneducated guessing......

According the Oncologist at the U of M Vet school. Canines are a vector (vector may not be the correct term) for cancer. Should they live long enough, they all get some from of cancer. In years past we may have passed it off as loss of vigor....they just had some form of cancer. Kinda male humans.......buddy you're gonna get prostate cancer..really.

[Chukar12]

Thanks Wyndancer...
Now I feel as though I have to urinate more frequently

[birddogger]

Tail is important, but a 12 tail isn't really any better than an 11, or 10. Bite? If it doesn't interfere with consumption of food, I say who gives a bleep. Performance is key, period. I'd rather have an ugly good bird finder than a perfect looking dog that doesn't hunt as well. Let's not become West Minster. Good dogs are more important than appearance. Now if a dog produces dogs that can't eat, that is a problem. Bird finding "uglies" are welcome over perfect looking idiots. Perfect looking, and perfect performing is the goal, but let us not stray from the "real" purpose of a bird dog.

The assumption I always get when I read something like this is you can't have both and I refuse to believe that. It is just as easy to find a good looking dog that hunts as an ugly one. If I have to look at it everyday then it better be good looking as it is just as cheap to feed a good one as an ugly one. I refuse to settle for an ugly one just because it hunts when there are so many good looking ones that hunt just as well.

Ezzy

Ditto on that!! I want a good dog that is pleasing to the eye. It just gives me so much pleasure to have good looking dogs. Even when I have them out for exercise in the off season, I just stand back and admire them. I simply will not have a bird dog that is not eye pleasing to me.
Charlie

[Yawallac]

I refuse to settle for an ugly one...

Ezzy, you've settled for Brits so... ??? Point is that "good looking" is completely subjective. Performance is not.

[Grange]

I refuse to settle for an ugly one...

Ezzy, you've settled for Brits so... ??? Point is that "good looking" is completely subjective. Performance is not.

Come on Yawallac, how could anyone consider this ugly especially when it comes from a 5 month old puppy.

[Yawallac]

Grange,

I hear so many people say that a good bird dog is beautiful no matter the breed. I say hogwash! I have become so breed blind that I only like the looks of Pointers! ...and if they have long fur they are even uglier!

[ElhewPointer]

Sorry Grange,

That just doesn't get me fired up like a pointer. My first hunting dog was a brit but, to me, there is nothing like a pointer high on both ends.

[Chukar12]

How dare you two...I have half a mind to quit surfing your posts and go back to work