Tail Set Question

[nitrex]

I see a lot of photos of GSP with their tails at 9-10 o'clock. When I look at the pedigrees, I often see VC, In. CH, UT, etc.. For those that have this "type" of dog, do you look at tail set when choosing a stud, or even a b**th? I am NOT asking what tail set finds more birds!!!! I just see bloodlines that seem to breed a lower tail set either by choice or tradition?

Please do not take offense, but I just find a higher tail more desirable.

Nitrex

[Middlecreek]

I don't have any of those "type"(VC, UT, etc) of dogs but, docked tailed breeds are a little different and not so easy to read. For example your avatar dog has a beautiful tail set for a setter. Your avatar is probably one of the prettiest setters I have ever seen. I hope you don't mind mind, but I used it for an example to help answer your question.

Imagine the box as the part of a GSP that was docked.... I then put a straight line through what would be left of the tail after docking.... While the setter in the picture has a beautiful 12 o'clock tail set full, when docked it would be much less.

So......to answer your question most people definately do look at tail set when looking at studs and females, but it's just different when they don't have the whole thing there to show off...





Just for comparison, below is a pic of one of my dogs as a pup with a docked tail.... 12 o'clock tail??... you be the judge



ya... ya... I know, she is not high on both ends, but she was sight pointing at the time..... and has since brought her head up.....

[mudhunter]

I train with a lot of Brittany people and most of them are looking for a tail set between 10 and 12 when I have asked, really as long as it is not pointing down or lacking intensity.

I personaly don't think its a great idea to breed for a 12 oclock docked tail since their is no way of telling if the rest of the tail would just flop on the dogs back, anyone that has seen a setter or pointer that has a badly sickle tail knows how ugly that can be.

[snips]

I think alot of Versatile people like a more traditional tail set on dogs. I think FT people like a more 12 oclock tail. Many of the Versatile bloodlines have more German in them, and they are definetly a lower tail. I like a high tail, one that comes off a dogs back hi and is 11-12 on point. Just personal preference I guess.

[mountaindogs]

All across the board I like a more "classic" tail carriage on a dog, personally. I would rather see a 10 oclock tail than a curvy tail any day, but the more I look and learn the more I think people are chosing tail CARRIAGE but not looking at tail SET. They are different. If the tail comes off the dog high and is also carried high it looks nice. If it comes off the dog lower then it has to curve a little (or a lot) to get to 12 oclock and that looks worse than a straight high SET 10 oclock tail. I have a female with a very high SET tail but she never holds it much past level. It is carried too low really but demonstrates pretty well how the two traits are different and the SET seems to me to be the most important.

[ezzy333]

I think alot of Versatile people like a more traditional tail set on dogs. I think FT people like a more 12 oclock tail. Many of the Versatile bloodlines have more German in them, and they are definetly a lower tail. I like a high tail, one that comes off a dogs back hi and is 11-12 on point. Just personal preference I guess.

Brenda, good post and it hits on something that has always bothered me, but I suppose is rather unimportant, and that is the difference between tail set and tail carriage. Tail st is where the tail comes off of the body and it influences the levelness of the back from the hips to the pins. A high tail set is pretty much the norm in our sporting dogs and is generally thought of as being attractive and beneficial to a dogs movements. On the other hand, tail carriage is the position or angle that the tail is carried. And this too is generally thought to be more attractive at a higher angle. The example of the setter that is being used is in my mind a perfect tail carriage when on point. I would describe it as an 11 o'clock tail with the slight upward curve or sickle that brings the upper end into a 12 o'clock position or there abouts. But the true 12 o'clock poker straight tail that we see sometimes today just does not look natural and in my opinion is not real attractive as it lacks balance and being symmetric to the rest of the body.

I think style, which in compasses tail carriage, is a characteristic that we need to breed for but because it is important we many times get carried away and decide that we need to breed for the extreme and when we do we lose the very natural attractive characteristics we already have. The extreme of tail carriage and also head carriage or crank as it is being called as well as extremes in coat are all examples of good points being carried to the extreme and losing some very important qualities in our sporting or hunting dogs. More times than not these come about by the people participating in a single venue and are used as a way of separating or judging the participants in our man made games and add little if anything to the dogs performance and sometimes even takes away from it. Dogs that point looking at the sky do nothing to help the hunter find the game being pointed and dogs with extreme coats do not shed burrs or stand heat or mud and snow as well as the dogs of the past and the poker straight tail is probably does not even change the performance much either way. I think all are just examples of good points being carried to the extreme to where in some cases they actually harm the performance.

I full well know style or good looks is a personal opinion and is something I insist on with my dogs, and that it is an ever changing standard but I just hope that the breeders of our dogs don't spend too much time breeding for superficial characteristics instead of the qualities our dogs really need to find a bird and retrieve it when shot. I know it has happened in the past but hope we can keep it in check in the future.

JMO

Ezzy

[snips]

This is my perfect tail...I do not like curved tails, have had some, but prefer this...

[birddogger]

o'clock tail with the slight upward curve or sickle that brings the upper end into a 12 o'clock position or there abouts. But the true 12 o'clock poker straight tail that we see sometimes today just does not look natural and in my opinion is not real attractive as it lacks balance and being symmetric to the rest of the body.

This is also my opinion, and I have tried to make that point many times but it seems most people disagree with me.

Charlie

[birddog1968]

Delmar Smith had a different take on the 12 o'clock tail, as being more than aesthetic....

""when you breed dogs" Delmar cautions " you make sure you get a high tail. That way you
get an inch to an inch and a half more muscle....that muscle from the hip bone back down
there to the thigh. That gives the dog more reaching power and pushing power. He's not
Choppy."

Dog men are astounded by Delmar's declaration. Until now most assumed a high tail stood
for high class. It stands for much more than that.

The higher we move a dogs tail forward- admittedly there's a limit, it can't attach to his neck-
the longer we extend the loin, hip and thigh muscles: drivers of the pelvic limbs. This kind of build,
in turn, permits the back feet to reach farther and trail longer, making a greater arc of the wheel.....""

[ezzy333]

Delmar Smith had a different take on the 12 o'clock tail, as being more than aesthetic....

""when you breed dogs" Delmar cautions " you make sure you get a high tail. That way you
get an inch to an inch and a half more muscle....that muscle from the hip bone back down
there to the thigh. That gives the dog more reaching power and pushing power. He's not
Choppy."

Dog men are astounded by Delmar's declaration. Until now most assumed a high tail stood
for high class. It stands for much more than that.

The higher we move a dogs tail forward- admittedly there's a limit, it can't attach to his neck-
the longer we extend the loin, hip and thigh muscles: drivers of the pelvic limbs. This kind of build,
in turn, permits the back feet to reach farther and trail longer, making a greater arc of the wheel.....""

I will not argue with Delmar's theory even though I have never seen evidence that a high tail set increases the other muscles. Most of the sight hounds that rely on speed and maneuverability tend to have a low tail set as well as low tail carriage. But here again he was talking about tail set and not tail carriage, two completely different things. Every dog that I have ever seen can carry its tail in any position it wants but they all have a position they naturally carry it and that can change with breeding. But because a dog carries its tail high does not change the structure from the littler mate who is more submissive from carrying it's tail lower. And the poker straight 12 o'clock tail is carried in exactly the same low position when the dog wants to keep it low. This is true with every animal I am familiar with from elephants to cows and our horses. Get them excited and the tails can be straight up and keep them content and they hang to the ground. This is tail carriage and not tail set that Delmar was talking about. I have a Brit that carries a 10 to 11 tail when she is happy and intense in what she is doing but when in doubt if she is pleasing you or she is sneaking up on something that tail is hanging straight down. With her, the tail is the best indicator she is in charge and I think we will find that is pretty much true with most animals. The higher tail we see today with our dogs has come about through breeding a bolder dog and the great job we do socializing compared to what used to be the norm. Tail set is connected to the body but tail carriage is connected to the brain.

Ezzy

[Fair Fields]

To say that VC/Ut dogs have lower tails is painting with a pretty wide brush. I would say most are 10-11 o'clock...just like most Dual dogs I have seen are 10-11 o'clock. For example, these are two of the better producing Dual Kennels. I don't see anything wrong with the tails sets and they aren't all high noon.

http://www.odysseygsp.net/index_files/Page334.htm
http://www.rugerheim.com/dualchampions.htm

[birddogger]

To say that VC/Ut dogs have lower tails is painting with a pretty wide brush. I would say most are 10-11 o'clock...just like most Dual dogs I have seen are 10-11 o'clock. For example, these are two of the better producing Dual Kennels. I don't see anything wrong with the tails sets and they aren't all high noon.

http://www.odysseygsp.net/index_files/Page334.htm
http://www.rugerheim.com/dualchampions.htm

I agree with this 100%. But I don't think the tail set is as much of an issue with the versatile dogs as it is with pointers and setters. I do like a high tail set, but like I have said before, anything from a 10:00 to a 12:00 tail looks great to me if it is natural and intense.

Nitrex, the setter in your Avatar has a beautiful and natural looking point and tail set. IMO.

Charlie

[wems2371]

This topic surprised me, because from what I've seen from GDF avatars, posted pics, and looking at member's websites for shorthairs for a few years--a 9 o'clock tail is a rarity IMO. I also don't really see all that many pics of 12 o'clock GSPs here either, in comparison to all of us that have the 10 to 11 o'clock dog. I just left a website of a pretty successful FT person, and GDF member, and I didn't see one 12 o'clock tail on the 20 something champs they had pics of. I went through the GSPCA HOF dogs, and saw 3 pointing pics of 12 o' clock tails, out of all FT ch shown. I'm not saying 12 o'clock doesn't exist, but it'd be interesting to see the percentages on what a few are chasing, and what most of us have...regardless of the lineage. I guess I see very few intense 10 to 11 o'clock tail points that I can find fault with...but of the 12 o'clocks, I see quite a few that have curvature and ruin the picture for me. To each their own...

[MOOSE]

So you are asking about tail set as in when on point and where the tail is? Not where it actualy is set on the body itself? Normally when one talks about tialset it is refering to where on the body the dogs tail meets the body such as is it straight off the top line, set lower off the top line or set too high. It is more where the base of the tail meets the spine of the dog.

And the GSP standard says that:

The tail hangs down when the dog is quiet and is held horizontally when he is walking. The tail must never be curved over the back toward the head when the dog is moving. A tail curved or bent toward the head is to be severely penalized.

But it does not say anything regarding how the tail should look when on point. So I think that is more a prefrence. I personally don't like the look of a 12 o'clock tail. I like the 10 o'clock area best.

[nitrex]

This is my perfect tail...I do not like curved tails, have had some, but prefer this...

I'd hunt behind this dog! That's what I like in a tail!!1

Nitrex

[Neil]

When you breed for intensity, class, style, boldness, and independence; and the dog is broke properly without taking any of it out, the high tail just comes along for the ride.

Too many of the dogs with low tails, either never had the above traits or lost them in severe training. Happy dogs have happy tails.

Neil

[lvrgsp]

My personal opinion.....I would take a 10:00 tail as long as the dog was intense, not flagging, over a tail that comes up and curls over the back, that to me is very unappealing. Just a bit off subject here but while were on tailsets and the like...IMO we shorthair folks have gone to much to the whats the dam tailset look like and have lost focus on what the dogs like as far as intensity, flagging, nose, trainability, how the dog stands there game, do they stay broke or are they one you have to continually go back and work on, and a go with you attitude.....vc, fc, nstra, whatever it is.

There again, JMO

Chip

[snips]

I just want it all Chip! :roll:

[mountaindogs]

Why does everyone think that we must "improve" every quality? Show lines have been ruined by pushing physical traits to the limit. I kinda like the old style, too, but what do I know? Brenda's dog is super nice and if every high tail was "set" like that and straight like that, I would be easier to win over.

But here's a old pic in this link:

http://www.numarkkennel.com/new_page_2.htm

and a dog from the UK:
http://www.adviegundogs.co.uk/adviegund ... k/ben5.jpg

neither of which have high tails but remind me much of the classic pointer style.

[northern cajun]

Well just look at the cover of any westminster kennel club show and look at the pointer on the cover that tail is at 9 o'clock. It is a matter of style and preference. I like a nice high tail set as well but a dog with a ten o'clock tail that can hunt and find birds, wont get kicked out of my kennel.

[ezzy333]

Everyone keep talking tailset and then describe tail carriage. I like the 10 to 11 tail carriage too but the 9 o'clock pointer has the same tailset as the 11 o'clock. I do see some dogs with a tailset that is too far forward it appears but all of our sporting dogs have a nice high tailset and that is what makes the level back from the hips to the tailset.

Ezzy

[Neil]

Well just look at the cover of any westminster kennel club show and look at the pointer on the cover that tail is at 9 o'clock. It is a matter of style and preference. I

I believe that, I have heard it said that Hobart Ames would brush the dog's tail down before a photograph, and instructed the artist to show it level, much as we stroke them up these days. But a walk through the Bird Dog Museum in Grand Junction, TN will reveal many un-retouched photos of the top dogs of the late 1800's and early 1900's with high tail sets, and 12 o'clock tails on point.

I have found that nearly every well bred dog of any breed that is properly trained will have a high tail (both set and carriage), that is why many top judges, judge the tail. They are not judging the wrong end of the dog, but a telling aspect.

If a dog is poorly bred, he will have a low tail set, If a dog is harshly broke on game, the tail will go down. If I didn't have to worry about the tail on a dog, I could break most in a weekend. I sincerely believe why most of the dogs in Europe have low tails is because of the harsher training.

Neil

[TAK]

If a dog is poorly bred, he will have a low tail set,
Neil

That is not so.... I explain with a example. I had breed two very nice dogs 3 times. The first pups all had wonderful tails, the second set of pups had fair to poor tails, and the 3rd time they was better than the first! I am talking about young pups running around with poker straight little sticks. Som of the pups from the second litter did show some improvement with age but not even close to the first and last litter.

[Neil]

It depends on how you define poorly bred, perhaps I should have said, if they have a low tail set it is most likely from being poorly bred.


Neil

[TAK]

It depends on how you define poorly bred, perhaps I should have said, if they have a low tail set it is most likely from being poorly bred.


Neil

Well how would you define poorly bred?

NOT being argumentitive but I found it odd and interesting that I could have 3 litters and have one of the litters come out with poor tails? Maybe the eggs or sperm was not on thier "A" game that day????

[Greg Jennings]

There are a whole lot of possible combinations in the genetic deck of cards. Sometimes you get a great hand, sometimes a good hand and sometimes you just need to fold.

[honeyrun]

When evaluating tail set/carriage, you have to realize that the tail is an EXTENSION fo the spine. Therefore, the dog will use the tail for balance when running, swimming, hunting and any other forms of movement or actions. A dog that has a 12 oclock tail, to me, looks unnatural. Also a dog that runs with a tail carried at 11 or 12 oclock will, for the most part, have a choppier way of running, and a shorter stride than a dog that has a tail set that "comes off the spine" in a natural set. Just my opinion, and one that has served me quite well for over 20+ years.

I look for intensity, length of stride and grace of movement. If a dog has all that, it will serve me well and look the part too.

[BigShooter]

When evaluating tail set/carriage, you have to realize that the tail is an EXTENSION fo the spine. Therefore, the dog will use the tail for balance when running, swimming, hunting and any other forms of movement or actions.

.... and that is why a stub-tailed dog will never look as naturally fluid & well balanced as a pointer.