The ridiclious use of the term "close working NSTRA lines."

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:05 am

cody wrote:
My grandmother can kill chickens
She may be able to kill chickens but not MORE chickens then Birdogz

I'll take the happening.

Believing in reality is beautiful. Prairie chickens are on my list! Dogs that win are real.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:15 am

bring it! i'm ready!

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:17 am

Birddogz wrote:
cody wrote:
My grandmother can kill chickens
She may be able to kill chickens but not MORE chickens then Birdogz
I'll take the happening.

Believing in reality is beautiful. Prairie chickens are on my list! Dogs that win are real.

I was speaking of cattail chickens aka ditch parrots.

Nice quick edit, and jump back in....now I will say good day.

Drifter Saver · Post by **Drifter Saver** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:39 am

vzkennels wrote:Drifter Saver I'm having a hard time understanding why a dog would be out of the field if it is so full of birds that you don't need a dog to fill your limit.Would that dog run past all those birds to go to the next field ?
I would think he would point your limit long before he got to the next field or at least flush a bird or 2 which means he would STF & wait till you get there to release him or am I thinking to much ?
Maybe I'm just too old to unerstand.

That is just my point. If the dog was truly hunting at the range previously specified, it must have been doing exactly what you eluded to. That is why I said that too far = not very useful for hunting.

Too old is all relative...I use to think my age now was old!

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:56 am

Cody;

It's become very obvious that BirdDogz is indeed Husker Buckeye from the Versatile Dog.

...the constant threads about pointers, in which he initially acts interested in obtaining one, then sneaks in the condescending remarks about their poor coat, lack of versatility, and of course, their inability to cope with dreaded dog-slashing razor-sharp frozen Nebraska cattails.

...the relentless assault on field trials, and his view that all trial dogs are run-offs that can't retrieve, can't hunt, and generally suck compared to his own Britts and DD.

...his reluctant admissions that while he has never entered a dog in a test or trial of any kind, he knows "a friend" who has.

...the claims that he hunts sixty days per year, and shoots more birds than anyone else in hemisphere. You'll also recall him boasting on the other site that he has no regard for limits.

...the habit of foaming at the mouth and challenging field trialers to a death match in the unforgiving tundra of those razor-sharp frozen Nebraska cattails. ("Bring it! Bring it!")

He has morphed from a teacher on the other board to a doctor on this one, but other than that his story has not changed much. New name, new board, but the same old Husker Buckeye....

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:22 am

Birddogz wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:
Birddogz wrote:Tell me this, why don't people with AA dogs want to take wagers? First 3 guys back to the truck with a limit? . I don't care how far you run, if it isn't resulting in game.
I have to say, and I guess i only speak for myself, and this is where i was going earlier but was out of town.

Running birddogs is about so much more than how fast you can fill a game bag....

A dog that produces a bag in 30 minutes and looks so so doing it will never outdo a dog with flawless
looks and gait and manners around birds in my book. I'm all about the chase and I'm gettin too old to
walk behind an ugly dog
You must be a shytty hunter. Your dog produces less, and they e still good? Spoken like a guy who kills few birds!

Please don't feed the troll. :roll:

D2shorthairs · Post by **D2shorthairs** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:33 am

Just trying to get this straight as I'm obviously confussed.

- ALL AA FT dogs only run at a huge range irregardless of where the birds are or might be.
- ALL AA FT dogs are running not hunting.
- ALL AA lines produce huge running dogs and All NSTRA lines produce close working dogs irregardless of the individuals involved and how they were trained/started.
- ALL AA FT dogs are not biddable enough for an owner to handle them the way they want.
- ALL birds can be found in areas driven to and/or found on foot with dogs working close.
- The guys out west who think a dog needs to run big and cover a ton of ground just to find birds are doing it wrong.
- All good hunters with good dogs should be able to unload and limit out in an hour or so.
- The guys here in Texas hunting 10,000 or 20,000 or bigger acre ranches who are running big running dogs out of trucks in teams just so they are able to find a covey or two of quail in a day because they are so few and far between are doing it wrong.

Just trying to make sure I have it all straight before I make a big mistake.

Doug awesome pictures as always. Keep-um coming.

David

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:25 am

If this thread is to continue, let's get back to talking about the dogs and not the people. I do think about everything that can be said has been and the results are still the same as they were before this started. People have different ideas of what makes the best bird dog but when the results are in the thing is that hopefully everyone has a dog they like and enjoy but there just isn't anyone type better than the others. I just don't think that will change one iota no matter how long this thread runs. So if you can keep the posts on subject it will stay open but it all depends on you.

Al

scott townsend · Post by **scott townsend** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:51 am

No matter what the format if a dog can't make it past the 27 min mark before falling flat, I would be checking that dog for health issues first and if there were none, given he had the proper conditiong going into that event, I would really be wondering about that dogs capabilities or the conditioning program.

scott townsend · Post by **scott townsend** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:22 am

There is not a format out there that is perfect, they all have there pros and cons.What some people don't or refuse to realize about the NSTRA format is that it is the only competitive (where two dogs run heads up against each other) format with a judging criteria that has to work for ALL pointing dogs not just one or two specific breeds. It is a venue that runs 365 days a year. Seasons change , dogs come and go and along with that the levels of competition will vary.
Are there grounds with short cover, sure it fluctuates with the seasons.Just as many times you see one that is shorter then some may like you will have them that are too tall, bottom line you have to be able to perform in any of it.
It is a format that basically judges the dog and the handler, with the handler having to play just as much a part in the brace as the dog.Without the proper handling you will not put your dog in position to score.There are people that really take getting beat in this format personal, so in turn criticize it.Yet there are others that like the challange. It is not for everyone.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:37 am

I will take a stab at my opinion on this... My thoughts are in Red!

D2shorthairs wrote:Just trying to get this straight as I'm obviously confussed.

- ALL AA FT dogs only run at a huge range irregardless of where the birds are or might be.Only if the owner/handler is developing for that, if they are wanting to compete in that, they are countinully conditioning for that. You practice what you play in.
- ALL AA FT dogs are running not hunting.I don't buy that, it is a differnt type hunting than foot hunting, but the bottom line does it produce birds? Now if a dog was to only run and show little bird savy I sould say it has the run but who cares if it can't find birds
- ALL AA lines produce huge running dogs and All NSTRA lines produce close working dogs irregardless of the individuals involved and how they were trained/started.That is the whole point of this thread! I don't buy this either. But if I wanted an AA dog I would LEAN towards a kennel that is only interested in breeding for that type. Now that does not mean that is what I get. Same goes with a dog that is ear marked "Foot Hunter" range...
- ALL AA FT dogs are not biddable enough for an owner to handle them the way they want. Again I don't want to buy into that. A dog that is going to find birds all the time will do it in any type cover.
- ALL birds can be found in areas driven to and/or found on foot with dogs working close.
- The guys out west who think a dog needs to run big and cover a ton of ground just to find birds are doing it wrong.That depends on how you want to look at it. Some people hunt them with Labs, or flushers and do dang well at it. Some like a dog to go to the top of the hill and if it has no birds up there there is no reason to walk up there, but you don't have to have a huge running dog. It is more of what a feller wants. I know a bunch of people that swear by a flusher and bunches that swear by a shorter ranging dog and ones that want them to be gone and when found better be on birds... Matter of opinion. I drive only Dodge Cummins trucks, don't know Y anyone would need more!
- All good hunters with good dogs should be able to unload and limit out in an hour or so.Can't argue with Dreams man! It is possible, but not always likely
- The guys here in Texas hunting 10,000 or 20,000 or bigger acre ranches who are running big running dogs out of trucks in teams just so they are able to find a covey or two of quail in a day because they are so few and far between are doing it wrong. Not thinking that it is "wrong" but you might need a "Bug" for your next hunt! BUG= BACK UP GUN!

Just trying to make sure I have it all straight before I make a big mistake.

Doug awesome pictures as always. Keep-um coming.

David

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:42 am

cody wrote:
They remind me of the guys that say I could have been great. Ya, but you weren't. Head to head, I will take serious money on "meat" dogs.
This is confusing, if anybody is going head to head it is the FT's, they put there dogs down with the best no matter the conditions, they put there money where there mouth is. If you want to prove your meat dog bring it to the line, it is a humbling experience, trust me. If you want meat in the bag get a lab.

Well that is the mentality that Trialers don't want or need. Many folks that trial in any venue also hunt the dogs. There is no need to get a less of a dog, or more of a dog, just have the dog at hand do what you want it to do.......

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:37 am

smokinsam wrote:
slistoe wrote:
smokinsam wrote: I have a hard time understanding the purpose of having a bird dog in a "bird dog" trial just to see how fast and far it can go.
go get some grey hounds and a rabbit,it would make more sense.JMO
So, you don't think that endurance, grit and heart, handle and nose have anything to do with being a hunting dog?
what does the dog get out of it besides exercise?
I dont see the benefit for the dog other than that.
I personally dont care for it.

Smokinsam -

When you cannot dispute the argument you change the subject. Well done.

First you want to know what the dog gets out of it and then you state the real reason...that YOU do not care for it.

Be honest dude, at least to yourself. YOU do not care for the idea of it...your opinons have nothing whatsoever with what the dog does or does not get out of it.

I have no problem if someone does not wish to do certain types of competitive events or if they prefer one typoe of competitive event over another. i have no probvlem f a person prefers a hunt test format over a head to head trial. i have no problem if someone prefers to hunt and does not care to trial at all.

Remember this...Just because you do not get any thrill out of a bird dog activity that does not involve killing birds, do not assume that others feel the same way. Just because you feel that certain types of bird dog activities are a waste of time, energy and money, others are under no obligtion to have that same opinon.

For what it is worth, just about every horseback field trialer I know, grew up with a shotgun in their hand and hunted everything that there was to hunt...and a few other things too. Just about every horseback trialer I know has made a conscious decision to engage in field trials where birds are not shot. Some of the horseback field trialers I know hunt their dogs on foot...a lot. Some hunt only occasionally and some do not hunt at all any longer. Yet they all have nice dogs and from what I can discern, they all sincerely enjoy their chosen method of having fun with bird dogs.

For some, pulling the trigger is simply not all that important anymore. The satisfaction they derive from watching a good dog do its thing is more than enough. People's needs and desires change over time. I too used to measure the success of the day's outing by the weight of the gamebag. No apologies for that and yes it was great fun. I no longer need to pull the trigger to have a great day afield with my dogs., but each to their own...in their own time.

Just something for you to think about.

RayG

D2shorthairs · Post by **D2shorthairs** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:37 am

Just for the record, in my earlier post on this thread I was being sarcastic. I wasn't trying to say anything but that I don't get these broad generalizations saying "all dogs", all hunters" or "all lines" etc.

David

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:53 am

D2shorthairs wrote:Just for the record, in my earlier post on this thread I was being sarcastic. I wasn't trying to say anything but that I don't get these broad generalizations saying "all dogs", all hunters" or "all lines" etc.

David

I got that but still thought I would be honest! I was a little sarcastic myself with the BUG stuff... I don't shoot back-up... I always get the first shots off!!!!

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:45 am

Ray your post is exactily the way most of us that have been around a few yrs feel.We start out young & gung ho & about killing all the birds we can,don't care much about style,class,run,etc just putting game in the game bag.As we grow older it becomes more about the dog work & wanting a dog that does it with speed,grace,style,class.I still enjoy hunting & shooting birds don't get me wrong but the dwindling bird population plus health problems that don't allow me to hunt like I once did.The dogs are in my blood & will be till I die so the trialing fills in those days that was once spent hunting.These dogs live to be in the field so I do the best I can do to keep them there whether it be hunting,trialing,training or what ever.I envy people like Doug,Rich,& others that still have the birds & means & health to hunt them.One day these younger guys will be where we are at & then will understand what we are talking about,it's a progreesen that comes with age like a little wisdom.

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:17 pm

Hey Birddogz what's your first name? Seriously.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:24 pm

Does the below look familiar????

------

If you had the power
by husker buckeye on Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:49 am

to make changes in current FTs, what would they be if any? I have met much resistance when I have mentioned that dogs should have to recover the bird to hand and that the bird should be a wild one. One wouldn't think that is so crazy, but apparently to some it is nuts. What say you? I realize some trials do shoot to retrieve already, I 'm saying design your own FT.
-----

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:44 pm

We do design our own field trials. The GSP clubs require retreiving stakes and the Brittany clubs do not.
I have even seen several local groups that close their trials to a single breed.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:48 pm

I think you missed my point which is that BirdDogz is sounding awfully like Husker Buckeye on Versatile Dogs. I'm asking folks if the post I copied from Versatile Dogs sounds enough like BirdDogz's similar post here to warrant further investigation.

Greg J.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:25 pm

Can you check his IP?

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:27 pm

He is either huscker buckeye or ryan baumann/chukarorbust but the SD version!!!

Who goes hunting with bird dogs with the SOLE intent to kill birds??

smokinsam · Post by **smokinsam** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:39 pm

slistoe wrote:
smokinsam wrote:
slistoe wrote:Oh, yes. Quality of life for the dog. I will give him a shot of brandy and a cigar at night when he dons his evening jacket. I will have a tailored shooting jacket for him when he runs. Life will be good!

Give me a break! The dog gets to go hunting! It is what the dog lives for!
hahahaha
that is funny!
I wouldnt go to that extent but you get what im sayin.
call it what you want just not for me.
why is that an issue for you.do I not a right to express my oppinion because I dont agree with you.
I am all for you expressing your opinion but when you qualify that opinion with a comment that is just plain stupid and shows a complete and total lack of knowledge or a purposeful deception then it bothers me.
smokinsam wrote:I have a hard time understanding the purpose of having a bird dog in a "bird dog" trial just to see how fast and far it can go.
go get some grey hounds and a rabbit,it would make more sense.JMO
your right
it was ignorant of me to make an oppinion and assumptions or accusations oe whatever on a venue I know nothing about.
i was just tryin to stay consistent with the majority of this thread I guess.
forgive me.

Don't run in horseback stakes if you don't like to. But at least understand their place and what they have contributed to the dog in your house. And for goodness sake do not, DO NOT intimate for one second that there is a top trial dog that does not LOVE what it is doing. That is the height of ignorance.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:42 pm

ACooper wrote:Can you check his IP?

I have it here, but do not have it available from other sites.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:45 pm

If you had some good reason why you need it you could send Christie a note and she might let you know. I don't see why it matters though? Have you banned him from this site?

smokinsam · Post by **smokinsam** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:11 pm

ray
you are right also sir.
horseback is not for me.there
it feels good to be honest to myself, thanks ray.

If It seems like i keep changing the subject sorry.
but i didnt know much about horseback trials until this forum(this thread specifically)and still i dont know much except what i need to.

I think the dog work is great i love to watch any dog work a field. its the people that can give shots about a different venue and get defensive when their given back.
oh well,dont care much really.I enjoy hunting and trialing as much as the next guy,it makes for lots of fun.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:13 pm

I have not banned anyone but spammers in a quite a long time.

Just let me say that valuable contribution and patterns of behavior carry across boards. If someone is making valuable contributions on another board and they are just off on the wrong foot here, I will take that into account.

jayhawkj · Post by **jayhawkj** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:37 pm

Why would anyone want him banned? I agree with some of what Z says, I have hunted my dog with FT dogs and been amazed at how far those dogs hunted ahead of my dog and shocked at how many birds were shot over my dog behind these dogs that are FT winning dogs. To each his own.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:43 pm

jayhawkj wrote:Why would anyone want him banned? I agree with some of what Z says, I have hunted my dog with FT dogs and been amazed at how far those dogs hunted ahead of my dog and shocked at how many birds were shot over my dog behind these dogs that are FT winning dogs. To each his own.

And I have hunted a FT Ch directly behind a regular old hunting dog and I have had birds pointed and shot. So what is your point?

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:52 pm

Elkhunter wrote:He is either huscker buckeye or ryan baumann/chukarorbust but the SD version!!! Who goes hunting with bird dogs with the SOLE intent to kill birds??

As a South Dakotan I resent that! Husker only comes up here to slaughter birds; Nebraska is his home....

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:20 pm

scott townsend wrote:There is not a format out there that is perfect, they all have there pros and cons.What some people don't or refuse to realize about the NSTRA format is that it is the only competitive (where two dogs run heads up against each other) format with a judging criteria that has to work for ALL pointing dogs not just one or two specific breeds. It is a venue that runs 365 days a year. Seasons change , dogs come and go and along with that the levels of competition will vary.
Are there grounds with short cover, sure it fluctuates with the seasons.Just as many times you see one that is shorter then some may like you will have them that are too tall, bottom line you have to be able to perform in any of it.
It is a format that basically judges the dog and the handler, with the handler having to play just as much a part in the brace as the dog.Without the proper handling you will not put your dog in position to score.There are people that really take getting beat in this format personal, so in turn criticize it.Yet there are others that like the challange. It is not for everyone.

THAT MY FRIEND ,IS THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF CRAPE I HAVE EVER READ. YOU ARE REALLY SHOWING YOU LACK OF KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING ABOUT FIELD TRIALS IN GENERAL. YOU MUST THINK THAT WE ARE ALL A BUNCH RED NECKED IGNORANT FOLKS THAT DONT KNOW DOG DO DO ABOUT THE PROCESS. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT YOU DONT UNDERSTAND HOW THE OTHER PROCESSES. YOU CAN ARGUE ALL YOU WANT THAT A POINT SCORING SYSTEM IS A NON SUBJECTIVE METHOD OF SCORING , THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT SOME JUDGE [NOT A ROBOT] MUST DECIDE SUBJECTIVLEY WHAT THAT NUMBER SHOULD BE. jUST FOR THE RECORD HOW MANY SCORES DO YOU SEE BELOW SEVENTY PERCENT. NSTRA HAS A PLACE IN THE FIELD TRIAL GAME

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:26 pm

scott townsend wrote:There is not a format out there that is perfect, they all have there pros and cons.What some people don't or refuse to realize about the NSTRA format is that it is the only competitive (where two dogs run heads up against each other) format with a judging criteria that has to work for ALL pointing dogs not just one or two specific breeds. It is a venue that runs 365 days a year. Seasons change , dogs come and go and along with that the levels of competition will vary.
Are there grounds with short cover, sure it fluctuates with the seasons.Just as many times you see one that is shorter then some may like you will have them that are too tall, bottom line you have to be able to perform in any of it.
It is a format that basically judges the dog and the handler, with the handler having to play just as much a part in the brace as the dog.Without the proper handling you will not put your dog in position to score.There are people that really take getting beat in this format personal, so in turn criticize it.Yet there are others that like the challange. It is not for everyone.

THAT MY FRIEND ,IS THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF CRAPE I HAVE EVER READ. YOU ARE REALLY SHOWING YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING ABOUT FIELD TRIALS IN GENERAL. YOU MUST THINK THAT WE ARE ALL A BUNCH RED NECKED IGNORANT FOLKS THAT DONT KNOW DOG DO DO ABOUT THE PROCESS. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT YOU DONT UNDERSTAND HOW THE OTHER PROCESSES WORK . YOU CAN ARGUE ALL YOU WANT THAT A POINT SCORING SYSTEM IS A NON SUBJECTIVE METHOD OF SCORING , THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT SOME JUDGE [NOT A ROBOT] MUST DECIDE SUBJECTIVLEY WHAT THAT NUMBER SHOULD BE. jUST FOR THE RECORD HOW MANY SCORES DO YOU SEE BELOW SEVENTY PERCENT. NSTRA HAS A PLACE IN THE FIELD TRIAL GAME AND IT KEEPS PEOPLE INTERESTED IN THE DOG GAME, SOME I MIGHT AD GRADUATE TO OTHER LEVELS OF COMPETITION. I'LL BET YOU SCARED TO DEATH OF A HORSE3!!!!

jayhawkj · Post by **jayhawkj** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:29 pm

slistoe, a little touchy aren't you? why are you guys so bothered by someone stating an observation from the field? Your dogs don't care, but your overblown egos seem to.

If you're happy with your dogs, than what do you care what birddogz or I or anyone else has to say about the games you play?

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:10 pm

jayhawkj wrote:slistoe, a little touchy aren't you? why are you guys so bothered by someone stating an observation from the field? Your dogs don't care, but your overblown egos seem to. If you're happy with your dogs, than what do you care what birddogz or I or anyone else has to say about the games you play?

Maybe because it is the "games" that folks play that are responsible for bringing you the dogs that you enjoy. Play or don't play depending on your view of competition, but you cannot deny the effect that competition plays in the quality of the dogs being bred. Heck, even when a few Spinone guys get together to run dogs they don't pick the slowest and stupidest of the bunch as the "best" dog.

All of the various competition formats out there bring something to the table in terms of the qualities in a dog. They all offer a level of challenge in terms of training and ability that suits a different group of people. But using the best dogs from any of them for breeding will be far better for the breed than a continuous program of Joe's hunting dog to Fred's bitch.

And exactly what was your point?????

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:49 pm

myerstenn wrote:
scott townsend wrote:There is not a format out there that is perfect, they all have there pros and cons.What some people don't or refuse to realize about the NSTRA format is that it is the only competitive (where two dogs run heads up against each other) format with a judging criteria that has to work for ALL pointing dogs not just one or two specific breeds. It is a venue that runs 365 days a year. Seasons change , dogs come and go and along with that the levels of competition will vary.
Are there grounds with short cover, sure it fluctuates with the seasons.Just as many times you see one that is shorter then some may like you will have them that are too tall, bottom line you have to be able to perform in any of it.
It is a format that basically judges the dog and the handler, with the handler having to play just as much a part in the brace as the dog.Without the proper handling you will not put your dog in position to score.There are people that really take getting beat in this format personal, so in turn criticize it.Yet there are others that like the challange. It is not for everyone.
THAT MY FRIEND ,IS THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF CRAPE I HAVE EVER READ. YOU ARE REALLY SHOWING YOU LACK OF KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING ABOUT FIELD TRIALS IN GENERAL. YOU MUST THINK THAT WE ARE ALL A BUNCH RED NECKED IGNORANT FOLKS THAT DONT KNOW DOG DO DO ABOUT THE PROCESS. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT YOU DONT UNDERSTAND HOW THE OTHER PROCESSES. YOU CAN ARGUE ALL YOU WANT THAT A POINT SCORING SYSTEM IS A NON SUBJECTIVE METHOD OF SCORING , THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT SOME JUDGE [NOT A ROBOT] MUST DECIDE SUBJECTIVLEY WHAT THAT NUMBER SHOULD BE. jUST FOR THE RECORD HOW MANY SCORES DO YOU SEE BELOW SEVENTY PERCENT. NSTRA HAS A PLACE IN THE FIELD TRIAL GAME

What?

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:55 pm

I am only going to interject my opinion once since I do not really want to get in a pi$$ing match with anyone. When each breed was developed 200. 300, 400 or even in the case of the Vizla 800 years ago they were developed for the purposed of hunting feathered and furred game but mostly feathered in the situation we are discussing today. I do not think the developers of these breeds ever had any notion of what field trial games or hunt tests or even preserve hunting were or any intention of entering them so as bad as most of you trialers do not want to admit it- bottom line is wild bird hunting is the true test of our respective breeds because originally that is what they were developed for- hunting plain and simple. I don't know much about trialing other than the fact that they have horseback trials around where I live but you cannot even go out and watch unless you bring a horse and ride in the gallery to my understanding. I hate horses so have never been to one. I respect what you trialers do and buy my dogs from trialers and even call or email friends of mine who are trialers to get advice. Please do not say that a trial is a better test of a hunting dog than hunting though because no matter what venue you run, hunting will always be a better evaluation of a good hunting dog than a title, championship, runner up championship which you guys are really fond of mentioning, or win at some huge trial. JMHO

smokinsam · Post by **smokinsam** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:06 pm

TAK wrote:
myerstenn wrote:
scott townsend wrote:There is not a format out there that is perfect, they all have there pros and cons.What some people don't or refuse to realize about the NSTRA format is that it is the only competitive (where two dogs run heads up against each other) format with a judging criteria that has to work for ALL pointing dogs not just one or two specific breeds. It is a venue that runs 365 days a year. Seasons change , dogs come and go and along with that the levels of competition will vary.
Are there grounds with short cover, sure it fluctuates with the seasons.Just as many times you see one that is shorter then some may like you will have them that are too tall, bottom line you have to be able to perform in any of it.
It is a format that basically judges the dog and the handler, with the handler having to play just as much a part in the brace as the dog.Without the proper handling you will not put your dog in position to score.There are people that really take getting beat in this format personal, so in turn criticize it.Yet there are others that like the challange. It is not for everyone.
THAT MY FRIEND ,IS THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF CRAPE I HAVE EVER READ. YOU ARE REALLY SHOWING YOU LACK OF KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING ABOUT FIELD TRIALS IN GENERAL. YOU MUST THINK THAT WE ARE ALL A BUNCH RED NECKED IGNORANT FOLKS THAT DONT KNOW DOG DO DO ABOUT THE PROCESS. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT YOU DONT UNDERSTAND HOW THE OTHER PROCESSES. YOU CAN ARGUE ALL YOU WANT THAT A POINT SCORING SYSTEM IS A NON SUBJECTIVE METHOD OF SCORING , THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT SOME JUDGE [NOT A ROBOT] MUST DECIDE SUBJECTIVLEY WHAT THAT NUMBER SHOULD BE. jUST FOR THE RECORD HOW MANY SCORES DO YOU SEE BELOW SEVENTY PERCENT. NSTRA HAS A PLACE IN THE FIELD TRIAL GAME
More like WTF!
HAHAHAHAHA
ARE YOU SERIOUS DUDE?

What?

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:14 pm

I find what he said to be very realistic. NSTRA is ran on a points system that the judge has to come up with a score for each piece of work. Horseback trials are also judged over the entirety of the brace. True the higher points win in NSTRA but it also has to be earned by the judge giving the score.. For instance a find can be 0-100 pts. To me that is judging, simple but also complex if ya havent done it. Same with a horseback trial judge, he or she has to see something that puts them above the other dogs, that is also within the scope of the trial criteria. Honestly a dog should look as good in NSTRA as it should in horseback trials, both should be finding birds, doing it with style/class and must handle for the handler as the format calls for. Any judge in any format is there because we have asked for that opinion. Yet we not always agree with it.
As far as a scores in NSTRA that I have seen, I have seen many scores well below the 50 mark and personally have handed out scores of 10's and 20's, on the flip side I have given 90's and as high as 98 before. NSTRA has a guideline of how a dog is to be scored, it is different than some formats, buy yet again very much the same. NSTRA like a stylish dog as does the HB trials do.

myerstenn wrote:
scott townsend wrote:There is not a format out there that is perfect, they all have there pros and cons.What some people don't or refuse to realize about the NSTRA format is that it is the only competitive (where two dogs run heads up against each other) format with a judging criteria that has to work for ALL pointing dogs not just one or two specific breeds. It is a venue that runs 365 days a year. Seasons change , dogs come and go and along with that the levels of competition will vary.
Are there grounds with short cover, sure it fluctuates with the seasons.Just as many times you see one that is shorter then some may like you will have them that are too tall, bottom line you have to be able to perform in any of it.
It is a format that basically judges the dog and the handler, with the handler having to play just as much a part in the brace as the dog.Without the proper handling you will not put your dog in position to score.There are people that really take getting beat in this format personal, so in turn criticize it.Yet there are others that like the challange. It is not for everyone.
THAT MY FRIEND ,IS THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF CRAPE I HAVE EVER READ. YOU ARE REALLY SHOWING YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING ABOUT FIELD TRIALS IN GENERAL. YOU MUST THINK THAT WE ARE ALL A BUNCH RED NECKED IGNORANT FOLKS THAT DONT KNOW DOG DO DO ABOUT THE PROCESS. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT YOU DONT UNDERSTAND HOW THE OTHER PROCESSES WORK . YOU CAN ARGUE ALL YOU WANT THAT A POINT SCORING SYSTEM IS A NON SUBJECTIVE METHOD OF SCORING , THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT SOME JUDGE [NOT A ROBOT] MUST DECIDE SUBJECTIVLEY WHAT THAT NUMBER SHOULD BE. jUST FOR THE RECORD HOW MANY SCORES DO YOU SEE BELOW SEVENTY PERCENT. NSTRA HAS A PLACE IN THE FIELD TRIAL GAME AND IT KEEPS PEOPLE INTERESTED IN THE DOG GAME, SOME I MIGHT AD GRADUATE TO OTHER LEVELS OF COMPETITION. I'LL BET YOU SCARED TO DEATH OF A HORSE3!!!!

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:23 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:I am only going to interject my opinion once since I do not really want to get in a pi$$ing match with anyone. When each breed was developed 200. 300, 400 or even in the case of the Vizla 800 years ago they were developed for the purposed of hunting feathered and furred game but mostly feathered in the situation we are discussing today. I do not think the developers of these breeds ever had any notion of what field trial games or hunt tests or even preserve hunting were or any intention of entering them so as bad as most of you trialers do not want to admit it- bottom line is wild bird hunting is the true test of our respective breeds because originally that is what they were developed for- hunting plain and simple. I don't know much about trialing other than the fact that they have horseback trials around where I live but you cannot even go out and watch unless you bring a horse and ride in the gallery to my understanding. I hate horses so have never been to one. I respect what you trialers do and buy my dogs from trialers and even call or email friends of mine who are trialers to get advice. Please do not say that a trial is a better test of a hunting dog than hunting though because no matter what venue you run, hunting will always be a better evaluation of a good hunting dog than a title, championship, runner up championship which you guys are really fond of mentioning, or win at some huge trial. JMHO

TOMMYBOY72 your a very smart man! Agree 99.9% that .1% is that I think EVERYONE SHOULD TRIAL/TEST! You really do owe it to the dogs to do so. Not for the title, but it is freakin fun, and the down time between seasons ya might as well do something with it!
For me I love to compete, its just my nature, but I know since I first entered a trial I have improved my hunting, shooting and friends network! I have never had a dog give me the look to not be let out of the kennel for a training run, or jump in the truck to go to a trial...... I am the opinion trialing and testing make your dogs better hunters!

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:58 pm

Divide & Conquer. Chalk up a couple more points for the aniti's. One trial format vs another,. Trial vs Test,. Hunt vs Trial,. Big Runner vs Close Worker. Plant the seed, step in stir the pot every now and then. So easy we are. I bet ol husker anti is just sittin back laughing. 156 posts in less than a month and I didn't see him jump on Yawallac once, wonder how he managed that.

Oh and to stay on topic, I can say I don't know jack about trials but I'll agree with the original poster's sentiments in that a good dog should be a good dog no matter what the "format" is. Some days I'm hunting 40 acre fields where I'll catch trouble if my dogs cross a fence. Next day I might be on the wide open prairies and need a dog to stretch. A dog that can do both comes in handy.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:24 pm

I am not the least bit an anti trialer I just don't think that because I don't trial that my dog is any less a real hunting dog than a trial dog is. I don't think that trials should be the only evaluation of a hunting dog line. That is like saying only women who have posed in Playboy should be allowed to have children and only men who have been in a Calvin Klein underwear add should be the fathers of their babies. I don't know about the rest of you but I wouldn't have the boys I have now if that were the case. I think a trial is a nice place to show off what your dog has the ability to do and hopefully what his or her pups will be able to do or excel at in a hunting situation but it isn't the be all and end all evaluation of a hunting dog or what you trial guys like to refer to as "meat dog".

TAK I guess that is where I am lucky because during the off season I train and run my dogs on wild birds for practice during the season. I also work my pups on wild birds. To me that is more fun than hunting the way trialing is to you. I also get some pretty decent pics sometimes. I think practicing on wild birds makes a dog better the way you believe trialing and testing make your dogs better. My coaches always told me and I passed it on to players who played for me when I coached " Practice like you play."

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:48 pm

Due to the persistent inability of several in this thread to avoid flaming, shouting and personal attacks, I have locked the thread. It will not be unlocked.

And, while I'm at it, it sure would help keep things in order if people would actually *read* a thread that they are commenting on.

Greg J.