EP What line? best bird finders

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ezzy333
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Re: EP What line? best bird finders

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:55 pm

ymepointer wrote:I believe most AF trials, the National, Free for all and National shooting dog. international endurance...etc etc are open to any breed that can qualify, and even those not registered with the field dog stud book, which is not the case with AKC trials.....so the notion that the minority breeds are being held back is pretty weak if you ask me. I beleive that if there were a bunch of brits, ESP's( :lol: ) or Red setters capable of winning they would be entered in and win the qualifers.
Who said anything about minority breeds, which ever ones they are, are being held back? I think though you will find that those trials are pretty well monopolized by the pointers and setters and are judged accordingly. Many people with other breeds feel they don't get a clear shot at placing. But even then the few that do run in them do place more often than you may think.

My own thinking is that my Brits would struggle to keep up with a pointer in a horseback trial of those types. And I am happy with that since I want the Brits to work like a Brit and not a pointer. We don't need to try and replace the pointer with another breed but I would rather see the snappy little Brit working the cover than seeing how far or fast they can run. It is a shame that it has become a problem in so many trials when a dog finds too many birds. All because you can't show the judge how well the dog runs when it is standing on point. Think we get our priorities screwed up sometimes. I saw it with the Brits some years back but it seems to have gotten better in recent years and people are realizing that hunting dogs priority is finding birds and not how far they can run or if they can keep up with a pointer. Hense, not too many people are interested in that level of competion.

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gunner
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Re: EP What line? best bird finders

Post by gunner » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:01 pm

I believe there is so very much more to hunting than just the shooting and killing of game. And likewise there's so much more to field trialing than dogs that run big and to the extreme though some posters seem to champion the idea.

Most hunters that have only owned and hunted over perhaps a dozen bird dogs in their life and have never attended a traditional field trial only know what they've heard or read about field trial dogs.
Many of those fellas are pretty adamant, vocal and biased in their beliefs, and have little experience of winning field trial dogs.

Some try to polarize hunters and field trialers. Field trialers are bird hunters that enjoy well trained dogs and have come up through the ranks enjoying raising and starting pups, the training and conditioning of those animals to a higher level and presenting those dogs in open competition to knowledgeable and experienced judges and to the scrutinizing public. These trials are held on grounds and courses that are managed to conserve and maintain various game bird species or offer venues similar to upland hunting coverts.

Trying to paint pointers as being a breed strictly for the horseback hunter is being very naive. Pointers easily know the difference between a handler on foot or on horseback and their need to change tactics to the cover presented.

American Field traditional field trial Open Stakes are competitive stakes open to all breeds and handlers, professional and amateur. Why restrict some breeds from competing against others? Excuses for not running in open competition are lame. Good dogs of any breed can win open breed competition, There are so many types of open competition today and there is no doubt good judges will place competent dogs.

Pointers have dominated traditional field trials for close to a century. They also excel in walking gun dog stakes, NSTRA competition, cover dog stakes as well as bringing home game for the average and hard core bird hunter. They have shown their abilities and adaptability from the Texas quail camps to the piney woods quail plantations of Dixie to New England and the upper Midwest's cut overs and popple thickets. Pointers have the inherent endurance, stamina, and bird sense to handle the prairie vistas and the various bird species that live in those habitats too.

I believe that pointers of any breeding can handle any game bird, pen reared or wild, in any cover presented . The ability of a good trainer to evaluate a dog and give that dog the opportunity to experience various game birds, their habits and, covers where they live, the many varying weather conditions and scenting abilities are paramount.

Speaking of field trial standards. I like the one used for the National Bird Dog Championship. It's also known as the Amesian Standard. It would be a good yardstick for any pointing dog, field trial pointer or companion gun dog.

What Is A Field Trial Dog?

THE AMESIAN STANDARD

The dog under consideration must have and display great bird sense.

He must show perfect work on both coveys and singles.

He must quickly determine between foot and body scent.

He must use his brain eyes and nose to the fullest advantage and hunt the likely places on the course.

He must posses speed, range, style, character, courage and stamina, and good manners, always.

He must hunt the birds and not the handler hunt the dog. No line or path runner is acceptable.

He must be well broken, and the better his manners the more clearly he proves his sound training.

Should he loose a little in class, as expressed in extreme speed and range he can make up for this, under fair judgment, in a single piece of superior bird work, or in sustained demonstration of general behavior.

He must be bold, snappy and spirited. His range must be to the front or to either side, but never behind.

He must be regularly and habitually pleasingly
governable (tractable) and must keep uppermost in his mind the finding and pointing of birds for his handler.

Clarke Venable Nov. 20 1895
National Field Trial Champions…. William F Brown
Last edited by gunner on Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: EP What line? best bird finders

Post by slistoe » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:06 pm

ezzy you are showing your stereotyped bias. What you can't show when standing on point is how well your dog can hunt the country it is given. Has nothing more to do with running than the very fact that in order to hunt the country the dog must run. If two Spinone (for example) owners ran their dogs head to head to see which was the better dog I really doubt that they would pick the dog that walked the slowest to the piece of cover. They would, like all the rest of us, like to see the dog that hunted hard and hunted smart.

All of the Setter and Pointer ???? trials I have attended have been judged the same - Which dog would be a superlative example of those essential qualities that comprise a high class hunting dog. Those qualities are most certainly not breed specific, nor are they tailored to one breed or another. It is a simple fact that most other breeds of dogs cannot display the same depth of performance in all aspects as Setters and Pointers. So most other breeds restrict their trials to their own breed, or breeds of similar ability, in order to identify the strongest performers within their breed.

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Re: EP What line? best bird finders

Post by Shadow » Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:14 pm

yeh- and in a field trial of high magitude only one britt was entered to run against 32 pointers and setters- that one Britt was said to be something that all the judges took notice of- think it was Gun Runners Far out

kind of sticks in ones mind that a Britt has been the best dog in all of NSTRA

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Re: EP What line? best bird finders

Post by BoJack » Fri Dec 25, 2009 5:21 pm

Good Post Gunner,
And the part that you stated-"I believe there is so very much more to hunting than just the shooting and killing of game" couldn't be more true in my book.With me it used to be the number of birds in the bag.But now I get much more pleasure and thrill out of watching a good pointing dog do what they were bred to do,search for, locate game and point it,especially a dog with style.The shooting part isn't that big of deal to me anymore.It's the Total picture that's more Awsome to me now.
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Re: EP What line? best bird finders

Post by slistoe » Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:19 pm

Shadow wrote:yeh- and in a field trial of high magitude only one britt was entered to run against 32 pointers and setters- that one Britt was said to be something that all the judges took notice of- think it was Gun Runners Far out

kind of sticks in ones mind that a Britt has been the best dog in all of NSTRA
Like has been said - judges take note of worthy dogs.

When you reduce the experience to nothing more than the killing of birds the field is leveled. You can kill birds over Australian Cattle Dogs if you want to (he pointed staunchly and retrieved to hand as well).

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Re: EP What line? best bird finders

Post by DGFavor » Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:12 am

American Field traditional field trial Open Stakes are competitive stakes open to all breeds and handlers, professional and amateur. Why restrict some breeds from competing against others? Excuses for not running in open competition are lame. Good dogs of any breed can win open breed competition, There are so many types of open competition today and there is no doubt good judges will place competent dogs.
Absolutely. All dogs are invited and if you wanna compare yers to the best, find out a little more about what ya' got, that's where ya' go IMO - especially the wild bird venues. I've done a ton of 'em with my stub tails, pretty much get my arse handed to me everytime but I have been treated absolutely fairly everywhere I've been (well, one exception I guess and I haven't been back). Personally thats where I get the best competitive evaluation of what I've got, couple that with hundreds/hundreds of hunting hours and I've got a pretty good idea whats out in the kennel...as well as other folks kennels. Have I mentioned that the best bird finders come from Texas and the Northwest?? :lol: :lol:

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Re: EP What line? best bird finders

Post by BrettBryan » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:31 pm

birddog 42 wrote, [quote][Dustin Shepard. He is from MO. He runs pointers. A HT Gigalo male, and a Black Magic Blaze male. They are very nice dogs for being as young as the are (just a year old). I believe that every time he has ran in TN he has been braced with Bill Moore./quote]

Yeah, i do remember him. He showed me his dogs pedigrees. Yeah, they seem to be both nice young ones. Bill Moore is tough up there on his home turf too.
I ran Bill's Tricky "bleep" Sky Hawk(Hytest Skyhawk dog) dog this past weekend in Lawrenceburg, TN. Hank ended up beating him 4 finds to 2 finds, but it could have just as easily went the other way. Bill's got several nice dogs and he works them year round. He's serious about it.

I also ran Blaze's Black Magic this past weekend. Hank split the field 3 finds to Blaze's 3 finds. I was happy with Hank. Hank's still young and will get better. He hung with two of the top 50 dogs in NSTRA(Top Performance Standings). So, needless to say, i was really happy with his work. I just need to take him more places and campaign him more.

But, yeah, i hope to see Dustin back up at Selmer on Jan. 16th for that trial. I'll be there.
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birdogg42
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Re: EP What line? best bird finders

Post by birdogg42 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:14 pm

He will be there. How old is your dog?

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Re: EP What line? best bird finders

Post by BrettBryan » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:03 am

He's will be 3 years in March of this year.
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Re: EP What line? best bird finders

Post by ka_key02 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:21 am

Not to hijack a thread but.... BoJack that has got to be one of the finest pictures of a pointer I have ever seen. That is an intense and honest point on a bird, not like a lot of those "trained" points were the head is as high as they can hold it when a bird is ten feet away. What a beautiful dog.

ElhewPointer, your avatar dog reminds me so much of my Sunflower X Explorer bitch....

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Re: EP What line? best bird finders

Post by Devils Creek » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:26 am

Thought I'd toss in my .02, though late in the game...speaking from almost 50 years with pointers....

The dog with absolutely no quit... a Warhoop Jake male I had in the 60's

The dog with the most run and lots of desire - a Condo dog (Builder's Addition) - was Midwest All Age dog of the Year in the 80's.

The absolute best bird finder - a Crow's Little Joe dog - who could nail a single repeatedly after 4 or 5 other dogs had worked the cover. I'd like to have him all over again.

The best grouse dog - an Elhew Longrifle dog - but extremely cautious, and lots of unproductives

The smartest dog - Elhew Blazin Hot out of a Damascus bitch - knew when we were in the woods, or when we were on the horse, was a "reporter"....if I didn't show up in 5 minutes or so, he would back away from the bird, come back and get me, run in and point all over again. If he was gone half an hour (pre GPS days) he might have 2 or 3 birds lined up for me to shoot. He'd retrieve one, then run in a straight line to the next bird. Not what you want in a perfect trial dog, but you could sure fill your vest with him. I lost him to cancer almost 7 yrs ago, and I miss him every day.

My current dog - by a son of Silver Bullett to a Whippoorwill Rebel bitch - just an honest hardworking dog that does everything kind of by the book. Lots of ground speed and a good birdfinder, but really just an Am Shooting Dog. The dog in my avatar.

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Re: EP What line? best bird finders

Post by BoJack » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:48 pm

ka_key02 ,
Thanks,he usually hit his birds hard.
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Re: EP What line? best bird finders

Post by ElhewPointer » Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:37 am

ka_key02 wrote:ElhewPointer, your avatar dog reminds me so much of my Sunflower X Explorer bitch....
Interesting that you say that. Ben's Dam is Elhew Gracie(Explorer x Sunflower).

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