Giving serious consideration to surrendering my weim

Atheist · Post by **Atheist** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:57 pm

Hello all,

As the title states, I am giving some very serious consideration to surrendering my weim. I am interested to hear what you guys might think..

This past January a friend told me that he knew someone who was looking for a new owner for his weim male. Apparently that guy had owned now ~2yr old Tucker (the dog) for 5-6 months (same as me now) and just couldn't find a way to cope with tuckers destructive behavior. I didn't know that nor anything else at the time and I still do not know who had tucker prior to the guy who I got him from. I had my buddy bring him up sight unseen and took him in.

He was pretty shy at first but warmed up quickly. We spent all of our time together for the first few days and became friends as I gained his trust and he gained mine. He was house broken and new a few commands but was very skinny so I dewormed him right away. He is definitely an odd ball dog so I am not sure what his past was like. I have a lot of land behind me so I started taking him out for long walks (several miles) 3x per day (which I still do) so that he would get used to being tired and stay calm. However, as perfect as he is when I am home, the first time that I had to leave him home alone I tried it without a crate and in the hour I was gone he scratched up the carpet at the door.

My first thought as a novice was to crate train him. Unfortunately, no matter how gently or slowly I tried to introduce him to the crate he hated being in it. He would claw and bite and howl and shake until he broke out and he ALWAYS found a way out. I wrapped three 500lb tow straps around it and somehow he got out. He would always be really skidish and hurt when I would return. I gave up on crate training because he ruined the crate and I couldn't see how I could get one that could hold him for less than several hundred dollars.

At that point I decided to put everything he could get in to away and try desensitization training for several weeks, getting up and gingling my keys, ignoring him for the first 10mins when I got home, gradually increasing my time away etc. Basically everything I could find to try. This worked somewhat but it was inconsistent. Some times I would come home to a perfect house, sometimes I would come home to torn up carpet or couch. He even clawed thru a door one day into my bedroom. Trail camera confirmed my suspicion of severe separation anxiety as he was doing all of this stuff within the first 15 minutes typically.

It seems like no matter what I do I cannot find a way to leave for even an hour or two regardless of whether or not he has just been out for a very long run or not. He goes crazy inside and outside when I leave so I have resorted to taking him with me and leaving him in the car because he will just sleep in there until I come back. The problem is that I am a graduate student and so I am expected to be on campus during the day but because it is summer I have to sit around at home during mid day until it cools down enough for me to go back. My need to be able to leave the house for at least a few hours will only increase over the next few years as I leave here after my masters and go elsewhere for my PhD. Plus, I am nervous about deer season this fall and how he will behave at my friends camp while we are in the stands as it gets too cold late season to leave him in the car.

What should I do? I have been very patient in my training and give him plenty of exercise but he has scratched away the carpet in two rooms at my house and has even gone as far as to open my bedroom window, break out the screen, and jump out the window (9ft drop). His separation anxiety is too much! I will REALLY miss his companionship if he leaves and I will feel like a quitter if I have to surrender him but I just can't live like this and I can't seem to fix him. It has been 6 months and in that time I have gotten him up to date on vaccinations, dewormed and looking much healthier, trained on basic gun dog technique, just about everything but neutering -- but he just will not let me leave the house!

Thoughts? What would you guys do? I really didn't think that I would ever have to type something like this because I am so patient but here I am anyway..

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:27 pm

Not much point in "surrendering" your dog to a shelter.
If he's not adoptable, which he isn't, he will be euthanized.
You are the one who has the responsibility of deciding the future of this dog.

Some will say, "Keep trying. Never put a dog down."

I don't believe every dog can be "fixed ".
There are dogs , usually of questionable breeding, who are a tremendous liability and you can not live with them. Humans don't need to be shackled to a dog like that, afraid to go out for a couple hours. Not too many folks here would have put up with as much as you have.
Kudos to you for considering what quite likely needs to be done. It's your decision and no one else's.

I'm an old lady and have had to put down 2 young dogs in my lifetime.
Afterwards you feel guilty and think, " Maybe if I had just tried a little longer."
AS time passes you realize you did the right thing.

Atheist · Post by **Atheist** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:44 pm

zoe wrote:More than likely, if you surrender him to a shelter, he won't last very long before they euthanize him.

What kind of a crate did you have for him? I have a wire crate for my lab, and I just don't see how a dog could get out of it without injuring themself. (I have only known of a dog doing that once, and it was a pit bull that was trying to get to a female in heat.) And, if he is injuring himself, I would recommend taking him to the vet and talking to them about neutering, and maybe prescribing some medication for him. (tranquilizers, antidepressants) . I am usually not an advocate of medication, but it almost sounds like your dog is not okay mentally. Not only that, but his behavior is effecting your life to the point of not allowing you to leave the house.

Your best bet would be to consult with a veterinarian.

Thanks for your reply and thank you for the reply above. I didn't know what to expect from people but I am very appreciative of these thoughtful replies.

First, let me say that the humane society here is no kill. Tuck is a good looking dog so I am sure someone would adopt him and I would sponsor him until then. I considered neutering him as a fix but honestly I don't think that will do it. He can lay here all day with me as I get work done but within 5 minutes of my leaving he is scratching away trying to get out. The best thing that I did for him was to ignore him for a bit when I first came back (I would recommend this to everyone) but it was not perfect for him and seemed to fade with time.

He has escaped from plastic. I actually typed both at first but that is not true, I am actually going to be picking up a wire crate for him next week when I visit my mom and was planning to maybe try that as a `last ditch effort` when I have that crate to see if it can contain him. My guess is he will howl and whine and jump and shake and claw until hes hurt and out. I don't know how he does it either, but he does. He just goes crazy until he gets out and he is hurt in the end. He once locked himself in my bedroom somehow and when I came home he had clawed thru the 1st half of the door (rental -- laminated), tore up the carpet, chewed thru cables, knocked down EVERYTHING in my closet, etc. and was standing on my desk totally freaked out when I walked in the room. My comforter had blood stains on it from his feet

I am so hesitant because I am just not the type of person to say `okay, this situation was too much for me, I give up` especially because he is so sweet when I am here. He is my perfect little buddy when we are together, he listens very well and tries very hard to please me. He is extremely smart and will do whatever I ask of him. I live alone and a bit out of town so I just know I would miss his company like crazy. We go to bed and wake up together and I will miss his dumb face encouraging me to wake up!

Like the 1st reply said, I do feel like I am about to turn the corner at every step with him because my heart wants to believe that but he just doesn't seem to be able to figure it out.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:54 pm

If you can't live with him, why would you allow someone else to adopt him?

I felt sorry :roll: for a dog at the Humane Society once and adopted him. He was heck on wheels and should never been adopted out. All I could think was that the person who brought him in didn't give them the whole story about the dog. I would never give someone else a dog that I, after an extended period of time, could not live with..... maybe my husband but not a dog.

PS You've explained very well the conundrum of having a dog like yours. They aren't all bad. They have wonderful parts but....................As a woman I have a God-given need to fix/nurture people and animals too. I guess that's why i enjoy my work at the jail. BUT there comes a time to............

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:16 pm

I see a few options:

1. An outdoor kennel with a concrete floor, the right wire and a roof on top. You'd have to move to a different place where this would be allowed.
2. Get a wire crate or steel dog box that is sufficiently strong. Lots of dogs get out of plastic crates but you can get a crate he will be unable to escape from.
3. Place him yourself with a home in the country, where he's going to live outside but only if you fully explain his behaviors first.
4. Euthanize the dog

One problem is the dog has learned if he tries hard enough he will always get out. Until he's in a metal crate that will hold him his behavior will not change. He may well injure himself trying to escape but if he's hurt badly enough your decision to put him down may be easier because you may not have the money to get him fixed.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:34 pm

One thing I just thought of - never said I was quick.

Imagine the anguish this dog is going through with its' Seperation Anxiety. Actually that is what we are hearing about - Seperation Anxiety in \a severe form. ( Most dogs like this also defecate in their crate etc when left alone.) Medication might be the answer. Find an "vet specialist" on psychological disorders for dogs. They are out there.

kerplunk105 · Post by **kerplunk105** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:39 pm

I was just going to say, I would talk to your vet about meds for him. Maybe some anti-anxiety?

Atheist · Post by **Atheist** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:40 pm

BigShooter wrote:I see a few options:

1. An outdoor kennel with a concrete floor, the right wire and a roof on top. You'd have to move to a different place where this would be allowed.
2. Get a wire crate or steel dog box that is sufficiently strong. Lots of dogs get out of plastic crates but you can get a crate he will be unable to escape from.
3. Place him yourself with a home in the country, where he's going to live outside but only if you fully explain his behaviors first.
4. Euthanize the dog

One problem is the dog has learned if he tries hard enough he will always get out. Until he's in a metal crate that will hold him his behavior will not change. He may well injure himself trying to escape but if he's hurt badly enough your decision to put him down may be easier because you may not have the money to get him fixed.

I am pretty handy with a welder and was considering fabing up a steel crate for him but honestly I don't think I could put my neighbor through that. Finding him an owner where he would live outside was what I was leaning towards but since this is a big hunting area I doubt anyone who would keep a dog outdoors would want a dog that may or may not hunt. I live in the `country` as is and I just can't see anyone taking a dog with separation anxiety and hoping he hunts. I try to stay optimistic but even I doubt his ability there.

Atheist · Post by **Atheist** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:46 pm

With regards to medication: I honestly don't think that I can afford it. I have a graduate student stipend for my entire source of income and so the vet visit and lab work alone would probably whipe out the `extra` money I have in the budget for the next two months. I don't know what the cost would be for the meds, but I do know that I am stretched pretty thin as is..

Edit: I have been looking into it since I typed the above (*sigh* so much for finishing this program tonight..) and there are some options which are not overly expensive (http://www.petsupplies4less.com/Clomipr ... 2TRI75X100 has great reviews on other sites and is not expensive). I am going to see if I can't get the vet to give me a script without blood work and possibly consider neutering him. There are low cost neutering clinics but I would feel bad utilizing that resource despite the fact that I could really use a little assistance there! If I try all of this and he still doesn't come around, maybe then I wouldn't feel so bad..

Thoughts? The advice and comments in this thread have been so great

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:11 pm

If you are willing to try for a bit longer....
get that good strong crate, put the dog in that crate while you are home. He only gets fed while in his crate. He only gets water while in his crate. He only gets toys, stuff kongs, chewies etc while in his crate. The crate must become a good, safe place for this dog, not a prison.
He has no goodies outside of that crate, remember, no food, no water..... all that stuff is in the crate.

If you put the crate near your desk, make him stay in it for more and more time..... when he is good, and quiet, open the door, but don't talk to him, no fuss, nothing. Just allow him to come out without any fanfare of any sort.

Put him in the crate, give him a stuffed kong, or peanut butter bone, get your keys and leave. Stay out only minutes, come back but don't look, no touch, don't let him out... not for a couple of minutes. Just keep this up for a week or so, and he should begin to relax.

If he doesn't, then you really have a problem that just isn't going to get much better. Some dogs, and some Wiems in particular have severe seperation issues. It really is sad.

An outdoor kennel will save your house, but without going through almost the same as above, I'm afraid you will just have a dog outside that is going to raise all kind of heck and havoc. It's interesting that he is comfortable being in the car alone.......

You do have a difficult decision, and you may want to contact a Weim rescue group before making a decision one way or the other. They know the breed!
Good luck
Fuzz

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:44 pm

Boy this is a tough situation, Another option though it might not work is a TE Scott above ground kennel...I use one on one of my pointers cuz she chews threw chain link. The TE scott has contained her for 5 years now. She does not have separation anxiety though, she just likes to hunt. The TE units have wooden doghouses on the back end so it is posslbe yoru weim would chew claw threw the box but perhaps you could use that welder to make a metal box. I have heard of a lot of weims with Separation anxiety. Best to neuter that pup to ensure it never replicates itself.

evantraylor · Post by **evantraylor** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:57 pm

i agree about the feeding him and getting him comfortable in the kennel. make the kennel a happy, fun comfortable place for him. as for a metal kennel/hunting crate. theyre around 350 i believe. youre probably gonna spend that in blood work and meds at the vet. its just a sacrifice you'll have to make if you wanna keep your buddy. i have a gsp who is 8 months. she kind of acts like that when i leave. nothing anywhere near what youre going through. she just whines when i leave. we can be in the truck, and ill get out to run in a store, and my wife will be sitting right next to her, and she'll whine til i get back. when we first got her, she chewed up things, but i just chaulked it up to being a puppy and adjusting. shes pretty much through it now. she just had to learn no matter what, she wasnt gonna get out or her kennel no matter how much she whines. you have a wierd situation though.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:27 pm

OK First of all where are you located?

I would suggest seeing if a friend has a dog box that you can borrow. That is the most sturdy crate that you can find. Do NOT get a folding wire crate. I have seen too many Weims pull the front panel in and escape. Dogs have also died doing this. If you use a wire crate it needs to be the drop pin style or one of the old Kennelaire brand that has very small holes and doesn't fold.

I bet I know exactly how he is escaping from the plastic crate. I've seen dogs who will push on the top with their head and pop the door right out of the holes. (I'm not a fan of plastic crates)

Do you feed him in the crate? Is he crated at all when you are at home? I would try crating him in your bedroom while you sleep.

Clomicalm is a fairly inexpensive medication. It can take about a week to show results. I have used it for rescue dogs and have seen positive outcomes with it. Some dogs need to be on meds to learn new behaviors/have behavior modification and in time can be weaned off of them.

How does he act with other dogs? Does he like them? Something that I have found with dogs with SA is that they do much better if they have a companion dog to be left alone with. Putting both dogs in crates side by side helps.

If all else fails please contact me. I have connections with Weimaraner Rescue and in fact am involved with doing rescue myself. Many times we can find a home where there is someone who is retired or a housewife who stays at home.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:17 pm

There's why this forum is so good.

Personal attention from an experienced Weimie owner.

Good for you Cheryl. He's a lucky man.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:22 pm

I just scanned the posts so I do not know if anyone else suggested this but my brother is going through the same problem as you right now only with a 100 lb. Rottweiler. The dog has severe separation anxiety and has torn up doors, an expensive crate, chewed up the drywall in his apartment, and torn up door facings as well. My brother even went as far as to take the dog to the vet and get him on some type of dog tranqilizers to no avail along with the traditional exercise theory. The only thing that has helped is that his girlfriend has a lab and as long as they leave both dogs at home together his Rott is fine. My brother even proved his theory by removing the lab from his home and the dog tore up the house so he then borrowed a dog from a friend of his that happens to dog sit for extra money. His Rott not knowing this dog other than for a few hours was left alone with the strange dog and never tore up anything but when the dog was removed from the home the dog went back to destroying things. As long as my brother is home the dog is fine, it is only when he leaves to go to work or to run errands that the dog does this. It just seems that some dogs have stronger pack instincts than others and some to the point of obsessive compulsiveness. The dog looks at you as his pack leader and pack mate so when you leave there went his structure so he tears things up. Perhaps if you get another dog for him to look at as a packmate this may help matters. It is only a suggestion because I am not an animal behaviorist but it seems to have worked for my brother and his situation is eerily similar to yours. Personally if it were me I probably would have shot the dog by now but I am a hard butt. You could try borrowing a friends dog and see if that works before you go out and get another of your own and mount your trail cam so you can see what happens when you are not around.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:12 pm

YES, STRAIGHT FROM THE MOUTH OF A TRUE DOG OWNER!!!

"Whats the best way to solve my dogs problem?!??

..........GET ANOTHER ONE !!!!!"

Sorry but I just couldn't help but see the humor in this all to unfortunate situation.

I can't offer you much help in your journey, but I hope this at least lightened the mood if nothing else.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:43 pm

I know Justin, it sounds like a dumb idea.

I did state if it were me I would have just taken the dog out and dispatched of it myself but when I have a dog I have certain things I expect of the dog and if it doesn't live up to my expectations then it either leaves my house or if it isn't fit for another home it meets God. In my 36 years I have ever only had to dispatch of one dog and that was for aggresiveness toward other people and destruction of my property. I expect my dogs to listen to me, not be destructive, to earn their keep by hunting, to learn quickly, to hunt at an earlier age than probably what most others on this forum expect, to not be aggressive toward me or my family, and to pick up on hunting wild birds on their own. I only have 3 dogs and I have given away several dogs because they didn't meet my specifications. If I am not hunting over a dog by at least a year and they are not hunting like a polished dog- not a perfect dog- but a polished one by the end of that first hunting season they go to another home. The dogs I have are better than most of the people that I hunt with, not all but most. 2 of my dogs are natural retrievers and all 3 will hold a point until I flush the bird or the bird flushes on its own as well as hunt dead and relocate on their own. All of this they have learned on their own. I do not use the customary training methods that some on this forum seem to be really fond of so I am not even sure if I could use all the up to date training methods but bottom line is my dogs hunt wild birds and do it well.

You are right when you said I am a dog lover but I am a lover of well behaved dogs that hunt to earn their keep. As a matter of fact I will not even let my wife have the chihuahua she so desperately wants because a chihuahua doesn't hunt and won't earn its keep.

I was just letting the guy know what my brother had to do with his Rottweiler. I live in Oklahoma and hunt and live in an extremely rural area but my brother lives in Florida and has taken to city ways so he tries all the latest Caesar Milan methods and tries all the vet directed medications and methods. Like I stated if it were me I would have just given the dog away to someone who already owned other dogs or it would have met God. Getting another dog was just a suggestion.

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:25 am

What FUZZNUT said plus the meds. After awhile, doing what FUZZNUT suggests, you may be able to drop the meds because you have a combination of medication and learning that your leaving isn't so bad and you always return. Tricyclics and other dopamine inhibitors can take a good week or so to really kick in.

You may be able to explain your financial situation with grad school to a country vet, and ask if they have "free samples" to give you - the pharma reps give them stuff all the time.

Given it is such a good dog when you are around, give him another chance for awhile, and if you have to ultimately make THAT decision, you know you did your best. Although your username may suggest another inclination, I find that praying for answers to difficult decisions seems to help tremendously as well.

Best of luck with the dog!
Gary

Atheist · Post by **Atheist** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:05 pm

fuzznut wrote:If you are willing to try for a bit longer....
get that good strong crate, put the dog in that crate while you are home. He only gets fed while in his crate. He only gets water while in his crate. He only gets toys, stuff kongs, chewies etc while in his crate. The crate must become a good, safe place for this dog, not a prison.
He has no goodies outside of that crate, remember, no food, no water..... all that stuff is in the crate.

If you put the crate near your desk, make him stay in it for more and more time..... when he is good, and quiet, open the door, but don't talk to him, no fuss, nothing. Just allow him to come out without any fanfare of any sort.

Put him in the crate, give him a stuffed kong, or peanut butter bone, get your keys and leave. Stay out only minutes, come back but don't look, no touch, don't let him out... not for a couple of minutes. Just keep this up for a week or so, and he should begin to relax.

If he doesn't, then you really have a problem that just isn't going to get much better. Some dogs, and some Wiems in particular have severe seperation issues. It really is sad.

An outdoor kennel will save your house, but without going through almost the same as above, I'm afraid you will just have a dog outside that is going to raise all kind of heck and havoc. It's interesting that he is comfortable being in the car alone.......

You do have a difficult decision, and you may want to contact a Weim rescue group before making a decision one way or the other. They know the breed!
Good luck
Fuzz

This is very much like the routine I did when I was trying to de sensitize him from my leaving the house except, of course, there was no crate involved. This looks like a great method and I will give it a try 1 week after he starts his medication. He's getting boarded next week while I am away for vacation and so when I get back home I will start him on the meds and endure another week of this before trying to crate training.

CherrystoneWeims had a very informative post and asked the question -- how does he behave with other dogs? At first he growls and sort of cowers away or runs back to me. If they growl back and I force him to stay there he will eventually try to nip at them. If they don't, he will become comfortable and friendly. He is friends with most dogs now around this area with two males being the only exception (though he is friends with other males no problem & all are neutered). I think I may actually ask my neighbor if I can borrow one of her pups while I am away like another poster suggested. Having another dog wouldn't be that much more of a hassle for me if it relaxed Tucker but from what I have read, adding another dog into the mix does not resolve separation anxiety. By the way, I am in the upper penninsula of michigan and the crate will be wire, not sure on much more than that. In any event I intend to weld and brace it and won't try it without the meds because I know exactly how it will end otherwise. The meds are really my only glimmer of hope..

My hopes for him before I met him were for him to be a strong willed hunter and I never expected this but unlike another poster above (and this is not a criticism), I just don't give up on things because they aren't exactly what I want straight away. I am willing to work to return some of the love my buddy gives me.

BTW, I forgot about a detail. For a few weeks I was working late at night because Tucker is usually pretty mild mannered if it is dark outside. But lately the sun doesn't set until after 10PM and so that isnt much of an option anymore

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:19 pm

Atheist,

Perhaps you could pray for the answer to your situation...

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:58 pm

Now, now, prairiefire....

Try fuzznut's idea's and the meds like you said. Be sure to tell your vet the extent to which you have issues. A friend has a lab/dalmation mix with this type of issue. She has this crate:
http://www.zingerwinger.com/xcart/produ ... ctid=16409
She has her dog on daily meds ( prozac I think) and Acepromazine when she has to leave. She has made great strides and is about to try to quit the ace...

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:01 am

Atheist wrote: This is very much like the routine I did when I was trying to de sensitize him from my leaving the house except, of course, there was no crate involved. This looks like a great method and I will give it a try 1 week after he starts his medication. He's getting boarded next week while I am away for vacation and so when I get back home I will start him on the meds and endure another week of this before trying to crate training.

Be sure to follow-up with us and let us know how it is going. There is much to be learned from this exercise and I am sure everyone hopes it works out.

Atheist · Post by **Atheist** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:32 pm

gar-dog wrote:
Atheist wrote: This is very much like the routine I did when I was trying to de sensitize him from my leaving the house except, of course, there was no crate involved. This looks like a great method and I will give it a try 1 week after he starts his medication. He's getting boarded next week while I am away for vacation and so when I get back home I will start him on the meds and endure another week of this before trying to crate training.
Be sure to follow-up with us and let us know how it is going. There is much to be learned from this exercise and I am sure everyone hopes it works out.

Of course! I just took him to get his rabbies shot from a new vet who works out of her home. Quite a lady and a much better & cheaper vet! She wrote out a script for the clomipramine ("Clomicalm") that I had wanted and I just ordered 100 pills @ 75mg from petsupplies4less. I am going to put him on those for a week or two and then I will attempt to crate train him again.

Thanks again for all of the feedback. Maybe I shouldn't be, but right now I am very hopeful that my boy will come around with a little help from clomicalm.

Atheist · Post by **Atheist** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:34 pm

mountaindogs wrote:Now, now, prairiefire....

Try fuzznut's idea's and the meds like you said. Be sure to tell your vet the extent to which you have issues. A friend has a lab/dalmation mix with this type of issue. She has this crate:
http://www.zingerwinger.com/xcart/produ ... ctid=16409
She has her dog on daily meds ( prozac I think) and Acepromazine when she has to leave. She has made great strides and is about to try to quit the ace...

I looked at some crates like that but, unfortunately, there isn't enough money in my bank account to cover that and my bills. My budget is paper thin!

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:57 pm

Atheist wrote:
gar-dog wrote:
Atheist wrote: This is very much like the routine I did when I was trying to de sensitize him from my leaving the house except, of course, there was no crate involved. This looks like a great method and I will give it a try 1 week after he starts his medication. He's getting boarded next week while I am away for vacation and so when I get back home I will start him on the meds and endure another week of this before trying to crate training.
Be sure to follow-up with us and let us know how it is going. There is much to be learned from this exercise and I am sure everyone hopes it works out.
Of course! I just took him to get his rabbies shot from a new vet who works out of her home. Quite a lady and a much better & cheaper vet! She wrote out a script for the clomipramine ("Clomicalm") that I had wanted and I just ordered 100 pills @ 75mg from petsupplies4less. I am going to put him on those for a week or two and then I will attempt to crate train him again.

Thanks again for all of the feedback. Maybe I shouldn't be, but right now I am very hopeful that my boy will come around with a little help from clomicalm.

You might want to check with your vet again. It's my understanding that that medication takes 3-4 weeks to kick in.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:25 am

Yes the meds can be 3-4 weeks to be fully effective. But I have seen results in some dogs at 1 week.

Atheist.

I would get him neutered. The low cost clinics are in place for folks just like yourself. The nipping behavior should be (pardon the pun) nipped in the bud when he is snipped.

It will make him much happier in the long run and he will get along better with other dogs.

With some dogs it is extremely helpful to have a buddy. No it is not a cure but it can make the dog's life much happier. Borrow a spayed female or a neutered male if you can.

Too bad I am not closer. I have several of the aluminium crates (I use them for flying my dogs and for rescue dogs) and you could have borrowed one. Are any of your friend hunters who have dog boxes for the back of their truck?

I'll be coming up to the UP in the middle of Aug for camp. Where abouts are you?

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:47 pm

Tommy,

Not dumb at all.

I didn't mean anything against you. I completely agree with you. Two is better than one. I just thought it was a funny scenario to suggest another dog in. And only a true dog lover would think of that, Myself included.

I also commend you for not letting your wife get a "bleep" chihuahua. If its not in the sporting or working group, it just isn't a dog!

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:05 pm

No offense taken Justin and the chihuahua remark is exactly what I thought.

Atheist · Post by **Atheist** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:11 pm

CherrystoneWeims wrote:Yes the meds can be 3-4 weeks to be fully effective. But I have seen results in some dogs at 1 week.

Atheist.

I would get him neutered. The low cost clinics are in place for folks just like yourself. The nipping behavior should be (pardon the pun) nipped in the bud when he is snipped. It will make him much happier in the long run and he will get along better with other dogs.

With some dogs it is extremely helpful to have a buddy. No it is not a cure but it can make the dog's life much happier. Borrow a spayed female or a neutered male if you can.

Too bad I am not closer. I have several of the aluminium crates (I use them for flying my dogs and for rescue dogs) and you could have borrowed one. Are any of your friend hunters who have dog boxes for the back of their truck?

I'll be coming up to the UP in the middle of Aug for camp. Where abouts are you?

They do offer low cost clinics but the new vet I have been using is very reasonable in price -- 75$ for Tuck. I would do it except that I really don't believe energy is his problem given that he is fine all day in the car or house and that he has always been well run before being put in the crate.

I want to get him a friend and probably will this Winter. My adviser and I talked earlier this week and she told me that she felt I would be ready to graduate at the end of this summer. I would probably apply then for spring (January) admission for my PhD program so that would leave me all fall between the end of my masters and the start of my PhD to play with them. It will be a heck of a change though, going from very rural UP, Mi with 100+ acres in my backyard to a much more urban area. To give you an idea, Columbia is on my list for PhD programs to apply to. Thats in NYC! So, I am a little bit hesitant.

I am in Houghton, Mi which as I am sure you know is at the base of the Keweenaw Peninsula. I do have friends who hunt, but none with a suitable crate.

Now, for an UPDATE:
I have made a little progress but not as much as I had hoped. My vet didn't get a chance to send in her info to the online store before she left for a 2 week vacation so I called, cancelled the order, and had her order them yesterday. Hopefully they are here in the week.

Meanwhile, I got a wire crate for him from a friend and set it up last week in my room. Didn't touch it for the first few days, just left it in the room. Then I began feeding him in there. After 3 days of that, I began feeding him in there. Next, I would close him in for a second, then open it. Over the next few days I increased the time he was in there, staying in the room working on my computer during that time. On Saturday I began leaving him in there and walking about the apartment and he has been very good. Beginning yesterday I started leaving him in there for 30mins+ after walks while I was in and out of the room, no problems so far. This has all been at the advice of an earlier poster who I would like to thank.

I will keep this up until he starts the meds then I will try leaving the house. I just repaired everything and cleaned the carpets so I am not taking any risks -- he still comes with me to school and stays in the car!

Ill post back soon..

Thanks for all of the help.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:25 pm

That dog is VERY lucky to have you. I commend you on your commitment and being a responsible pet owner. ( thumbs up icon).

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:48 pm

I am in Houghton, Mi which as I am sure you know is at the base of the Keweenaw Peninsula.

Holy Crap I just looked that up on the map! You are even further up than where I will be. I'll be in Grand Marais next month. What the heck are you doing your Masters in?? I wouldnt' want to be up there in the winter. Must be awfully desolate and snowy. Well maybe I would want to be up there some but not for a whole winter.

It sounds like you are on your way to getting somewhere with the crate training.

Atheist · Post by **Atheist** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:49 am

CherrystoneWeims wrote:
I am in Houghton, Mi which as I am sure you know is at the base of the Keweenaw Peninsula.
Holy Crap I just looked that up on the map! You are even further up than where I will be. I'll be in Grand Marais next month. What the heck are you doing your Masters in?? I wouldnt' want to be up there in the winter. Must be awfully desolate and snowy. Well maybe I would want to be up there some but not for a whole winter.

It sounds like you are on your way to getting somewhere with the crate training.

Where is Grand Marais in the UP? I have heard of a Grand Marais but I thought that was in MN.

Winter is my favorite time of year! Before I came here I didn't think I would care for winter but I have really grown to love it. The weather her is fantastic - hot, dry summers and nice snowy winters that are usually not TOO bitter.

I did my undergrad in Biomedical Engineering and I am doing my masters in Electrical Engineering. My masters thesis is the development of wireless implantable sensor which is going quite well -- hence the fast graduation! I haven't decided if I will apply to PhD programs in electrical or biomed engineering, we'll see. The schools I am considering are very competitive and it may be a little easier to get in as a biomed since the programs are not as renowned.

Being a grad student is a very good time to own a dog. Yes, you do work a lot, but your schedule is flexible so I can always find time to play with my buddy. Yesterday while I was flyfishing in a river a ways behind my house a BEAR snuck up behind me. Fortunately Tucker was a ways away and didn't notice and I was able to scare the bear off.

Thanks again for all of the comments, it helps me to keep going!

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:03 am

I live in London. Ont. I took a dog to a trainer in Marquette many years ago. Absolutely breath taking country - huge stands of white pine. I could move there in a minute.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:24 pm

Where is Grand Marais in the UP? I have heard of a Grand Marais but I thought that was in MN.

It's up near Picture Rocks. North of Seney.

JasonW77 · Post by **JasonW77** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:52 pm

The odd thing about this is my mom and dad got a chocolate lab from a lady that who had to get rid of her. Because her husband didn't want a dog and she got one away. Long story short we believe that the dog was kept in a crate and the husband must have beaten the dog because she was very timid around men. Especially when you would raise your arm near her. She was about 10 months old when my parents took her in. At one point she ate through the dry wall and door that went down to there basement. The dog also took down a outdoor down a chain link fence dog kennel, three times. They finally took her to the vet and she was put on meds to help with the separation anxiety. After a couple weeks the dog was much more calmer when they were away and now after taking the meds for almost a year the dog no longer needs them and is happy and calm. I would say try the meds it might take a week or so but give it a shot. If you want pm me and I can find out what the meds were for you.

Atheist · Post by **Atheist** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:58 am

I figure I owe this thread an update and, unfortunately, it will be the final `update` I can give.

Lets go back a few months...
After the good advice on this thread I reinforced a metal wire crate and got Tucker started on 75mg/day of generic clomicalm (33$/90 pills) after doing a LOT of research on which drug had the best efficacy. Two weeks into that I began leaving him in my car for extended periods of time with walks every 2 hours as I am lucky enough to have dog walking trails right where my lab and office are which is also where I park. He got into a bag groceries I left in there once and chewed on the seatbelts a few other times but he was overall pretty good and I liked having him at my office so I had a walking partner during the day. As well, a custodian fell in love with him and she would visit him and let him out of my car to play with him sometimes.

While that was working okay, it still meant that I had to bring him everywhere with me which got to be a little bit annoying (and stinky!). I knew that I should really have been working with him on the crate anyhow because I would have to get there for the school year but to be honest, I really didn't want to because I didn't want him to fail. I finally convinced myself to start trying and would put him in his crate for longer and longer periods of time following the guide on this website. Eventually he would sit there for 2 hours if I was in the other room and not visible (but still audible -- small apt.). I then started crating him at night which was TOUGH. The very first night he woke me up wining and crying over and over until I finally gave in and let him out (I knew I shouldn't but I couldn't take it). I didn't even check the clock but it felt like it had been atleast a few hours. The next night I crated him again and reminded myself to check the clock when he started whining. To my surprise he started whining not 45 minutes later!! This time, though, I was able to ignore it and got almost no sleep before finally giving up on bed and starting my day at 5:45 that AM. Needless to say, I put a serious dent in my folgers can.

That continued the very long week (during which I still worked on making him feel at home in the crate during the day) with some improvement finally beginning around night 4 or 5 where he would make it 3 hours before whining. I had read not to yell at them but with a meeting the next day at 8AM I yelled `TUCKER, knock it off!` and to my surprise he did. I was pleased!

So after the second week he was totally comfortable sleeping in his crate all night and I was feeling very hopeful that he would be a better dog during the day. While still keeping him in the car most of the time and working with him on making his crate feel like home during the day, I began fortifying the crate and keeping him in there for 1hr+ while i was away (only after a long walk, of course). This was about 1 week ago -- yes I took my sweet time! I could tell he was trying to escape as he was bending the bars on his crate but it was holding strong. I hoped that he would learn soon, just as he had with staying in his crate at night.

Unfortunately for whatever reason he began to be become destructive in the car, a change I found out when I came back to the car and found my fishing rod - which I had left in the car MANY times as my office is on the water and I will occasionally fish there - shortened from 6'6'' to 6''. I have no idea why as I had walked him 3x that day already and it was only 2 o'clock but I was still out 100$ on the rod which is a huge bummer as my fly rod had broken several weeks prior. I was so disappointed because I felt like he was making a major turn for the worst.

That sort of attitude continued and I felt like I had no choice but to try to crate him for a while longer because there was no safe zone anymore -- no where he wouldn't be destructive. I knew that if he couldn't be in the car, and couldn't be in the crate, I would have no choice but to get rid of him because I have already had 600$+ destroyed by him. So on Monday I left him in the crate (with the door zip-tied for extra assurance) for 1.5hr in the morning while I went to class and came back to let him out and take him for a run, he was doing fine. I followed the standard desensitization techniques I had been trying -- leave him in for 10mins when I get home, ignore him for 15mins when he gets out, etc. When I left there again I put him back in his crate and zip-tied the door shut and came back 2 hours later to walk him again. This time I could tell he was getting anxious because he pulled some of the stuffing out of his pillow and made a general mess of the inside of the crate. So I stayed home for 2 hours, walked him at the end, and put him back in his crate with the door again bound shut and returned to school -- I do have obligations, after all!

When I came home 2 hours later he greeted me at the door with a face that reflected a dog who knew he had been bad. I had been dreading that all day but I was honestly not very surprised -- I had even locked the doors and windows that day in case he did get out because earlier in the summer before I started bringing him everywhere he was opening my bedroom window, kicking out the screen, and jumping 10ft to the ground and greeting me outside when I returned.

I knew right away that the room I keep his crate in (my bedroom) would be destroyed. As I walked in I saw this:

I didn't feel mad (which you might expect), I felt so disappointed. I knew right then that I was not going to be able to control him no matter how hard I tried. I sat down on the edge of my bed for a few minutes to come to terms with the fact that I would have to surrender him. He kept walking to me whining quietly, timid because he knew he had been bad and sort of expecting to be punished (which I gave up on several months prior as negative punishment is NOT the way to deal with a dog with separation anxiety).

I remembered that a member here said to contact her first but I couldn't -- I had to make utility of the realization before it faded and so with a very heavy heart I loaded him in the car and drove down the road (3min drive) to the humane society which, remember, is no-kill. I had been there a number of times during the summer asking for advice on this or that, getting the vets home number, etc, so they are familiar with me and with Tucker. I think I must have carried a dismal look as she seemed to know right away that I was there to throw in the towel. It was surprisingly hard to go through the paperwork and I had a really uneasy feeling when she asked if I could keep him one more night and bring him back in the AM after she had a chance to fortify a kennel for him (he climbed a 6'6'' fence when I boarded him last).

Overall, though, I am glad I got to spend one more night with my buddy. I gave up on the crate training and let him stay with me which is sort of surprising as most people would tell you I am emotionally very tough and don't often show any at all. This morning I woke up at 6:50 and had him to the shelter at 9, as promised. I took his collar off and handed her a bag with his vetting paperwork, medication, and a check to the humane society to sponsor him until he is adopted. It is still strange to think that I have nothing to rush home for (in fact I am trying to stay on campus all day to avoid going him and not having him there) and I will miss him but the one thing I am very happy about is that I there aren't any second thoughts -- I really think I gave him everything I could.

The humane society knows that he can only go to a person who never leaves and I am confident they will ensure that the new owner is a suitable one. I keep checking the website to see if they have updated it to list him, it will be nice when I know he has someone elses affection as he is the sweetest dog there is.

Anyhow, thanks for all of the advice and support. I tried everything & more but, unfortunately, sometimes you just can't change someone or something. I was looking at puppies just now but unfortunately the fee is so high for the darker GSPs that I really love that I just can't get one right now. Wish I could. Its amazing how much you can care about an animal.

Here is Tucker saying his last goodbye to me this morning. So long, buddy.

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:14 am

You can only do what you can do. You gave this situation a lot more time and effort than many would have. Some dogs , for a variety of reasons, just don't have what it takes to make it in this world. Over a 45 year period I've had two that I had to put down. Adoption was not an option for them. It's hard because we grow to love our dogs , but don't beat yourself up over this. It's easy to be judgmental when you are not dealing with the situation, but I think you did the right thing.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:38 am

Sad story. One positive maybe ... now you have education and hands on experience with crate training. That should prove useful when crate training a puppy, when you are able to get one. One note, often water is sprayed at a dog in or out of it's kennel to get it to quit barking or whining. They may love to swim but generally do not like being sprayed. For puppies I have successfully used a squirt gun to get them out of the habit of whining when they are kenneled up in a crate. Obviously you have to know when they had food or water last & whether you've had them out to eliminate before crating. You do not want to discourage them from making noise when they want you to know they need to go outside.

Atheist · Post by **Atheist** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:45 pm

BigShooter wrote:Sad story. One positive maybe ... now you have education and hands on experience with crate training. That should prove useful when crate training a puppy, when you are able to get one. One note, often water is sprayed at a dog in or out of it's kennel to get it to quit barking or whining. They may love to swim but generally do not like being sprayed. For puppies I have successfully used a squirt gun to get them out of the habit of whining when they are kenneled up in a crate. Obviously you have to know when they had food or water last & whether you've had them out to eliminate before crating. You do not want to discourage them from making noise when they want you to know they need to go outside.

Actually that reminds me of kind of a funny story. Tucker only liked to go number two after running for a while so usually before bed I would do a lap around the woods to get him moving. One night after doing that I put him in his crate and went to bed. At 3AM he started whining which I ignored for as long as I could then told him to knock it off. He did for a second but then he started whining again. I yelled again and he stopped. I fell back asleep only to be reawoken 10 minutes later by whining and heard that he was panting VERY heavily. At this point I thought `ohhhhhh man, I think I know what that means` so I let him out, he bolts for the door to outside, I let him out of that and he bolts into the yard and then I heard, well, doggie #2. The panting just cracked me up, he must have been hurting!

I did gain a lot of experience with training though that will carry on. He was extremely sharp in the field and very obedient. I had several people tell me they were impressed with how well he listened. I think I can use that experience when I train the next dog. The thing I was most proud of though was that I made his life so much better. I was just looking through a few old photos that I took with my phone starting with the first day I got him -- funny how many memories you make with a creature who can't even have a conversation with you.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:39 pm

You gave it everything you had. I could have never made it that long.

Charlie

Atheist · Post by **Atheist** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:03 pm

Thanks everyone. I am still just a little bummed. Went home for lunch and noticed his water bowl was empty but I didn't realize that it didn't need to be filled until I had turned the sink on.

I was looking through my old pictures of him and I found this one, taken 1 month after I got him when he locked himself in my room while I was away. It is the same room as in the above picture and is the same story described in my first post.

And here is one that I took with my phone and thought was cute at the time. Three hours later he had eaten said phone!

But when he posed for his dad I could forgive each thing until I ran out of things to forgive yesterday:

Thanks again for all of the comments and help.

twofeathers · Post by **twofeathers** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:03 am

JMO what if you just gave that dog to a little old lady, who Does leave the house once, and the dog destroys the house chews up a cord and burns her house to the ground. That dog is a danger. It should have been put down. It has the potential to be life threatening to someone else. JMO

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:23 am

I'm so sorry you had to come to this final conclusion, both for you and for the dog. But it's probably the best for you.
This kind of re-training takes time, sometimes a lot of time and it doesn't sound like you really had a lot of that.
With luck, this dog will find the right home with someone who knows the breed and has the time to really break his bad habits. Some dogs however are just not wired right, and they can never be comfortable with themselves and their surroundings, and unfortunately these dogs generally go over the bridge at some point.

I'm all for rescue, but this is a good lesson in life .... some dogs are in shelters and rescues for a good reason, some dogs deserve a second chance. Some just can't be helped. And anyone who decides to take one on really needs to be sure they have the time, the living arrangements, and the knowledge of how to deal with the possible problems. In todays society, rescue is the big thing with those breeding good sound dogs always getting the black eye.

Weims are tough to begin with, they aren't a breed for everyone and those out there with bad genes just make it all the worse for those that are bred right.
Hey, you tried, way more than most would have...... you can't save everything!
Fuzz

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:33 am

In todays society, rescue is the big thing with those breeding good sound dogs always getting the black eye.

Weims are tough to begin with, they aren't a breed for everyone and those out there with bad genes just make it all the worse for those that are bred right.

Sometimes good breeders do get bashed by rescue groups. BUT my feeling is that if more good breeders were to get involved with rescue then that would not happen as often. In my Weimaraner Club everyone who breeds is also involved in rescue. I have one in foster right now. Poor thing has had a hard life and is having a hard time trusting humans. She was turned into a shelter we pulled her and got her mended. We adopted her out but the ***%$^&J* $%$#@# that adopted her let her off lead the first day they adopted her! Of course she was scared. So she was running wild on the lam for 6 mos! Animal Control finally caught her and we have her back. She was terrified when I pulled her from the shelter. But she is turning around fairly quickly by having good examples from my pack and a lot of love at my home.

Yes Weims do have a bad reputation and it makes it hard for those of us who work very diligently to overcome that reputation when there are bad breeders who are just in it for the money.