Who do you think will win at Ames?

gunner · Post by **gunner** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:52 am

Why is it those continental breed clubs so often ask the pointer and setter guys to judge their stakes?
When asked to judge I've placed other breeds above pointers and setters, and like most others I know would do the same IF the dog was the better of other dogs competing. The judges I know are honest and their integrity and reputation is paramount over politics.
There are very good continental breed individuals that can and do win over the pointer and setters; particularly in those venues outside open all-age endurance stakes. Continental dogs could do very well in open shooting dog competition if given the chance. Their owners often avoid open stakes but focus on the restricted breed venues where if placed points accrued by their animals may mount up to being named a champion.

A good forward flung birdless race could win a puppy or young dog stake but one would be hard pressed to give an example of a championship or weekend event where the winners weren't shown on birds

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:06 pm

Continental dogs could do very well in open shooting dog competition if given the chance.

Since a high cracking tail is so highly regarded in the Shooting Dog stakes, IMO it would be hard for a docked tailed dog to win if all other things were equal. That goes for flat tailed running Pointers and Setters as well. That's a hill I wouldn't waste my time trying to climb with a Continental or flat-tailed Pointer.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:08 pm

Pointer people get asked to judge because they have horses

And some of them do know what they are looking at, but I have found that a number of them look down on other breeds. GSP championships are run the same way as pointer championship, no points, that is AKC, a totally different world. Like I said good luck getting a look at in a championship, and by the way who said we can't run in open stakes.

Yawallac who said that GSPs don't have high cracking tails? Just like pointers some do some don't.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:40 pm

Ross you haven't seen some of the GSPS I've seen.My avatar dog Star has a 12:00 ticking tail as does her mother & most of my dogs.They would be cracking if left full length,I like style & class aswell as you do & doing my best to keep it.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:29 pm

Ross you haven't seen some of the GSPS I've seen.My avatar dog Star has a 12:00 ticking tail as does her mother & most of my dogs.They would be cracking if left full length,I like style & class aswell as you do & doing my best to keep it.

I know!! There are a couple of GSPs in our kennel that I am convinced if they had long tails they would be every bit as high and cracking as any of our Pointers. The problem is that their tails are docked!! ...and you can't judge what you can't see!!

Joe, I'm not knocking GSPs at all. I love GSPs and I own GSPs, but I have also owned Pointers that pointed with 12:00 oclock tails but didn't run with 12:00 oclock tails and neither can win competitive Shooting Dog stakes .....if all other things are equal. That's all I'm saying. I know, I know, they don't find birds with their tails, yada, yada, yada, but the fact remains that they gotta seperate 'em somehow and if the birdwork is equal it comes down to the other stuff.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:48 pm

If you are going to come up with a reason why continental breeds don't run at Ames at least come up with a good one. I will say that I have seen only 1 or 2 GSPs that can do 3 hrs. (although I understand that is not what we train for), and again GSPs are out numbered 100 to 1. The pointer is much more refined (many more dogs to choose from) and there is a lot more money behide pointers. Believe me when I say it takes a lot of money and time to run any dog at the national level. And I guess because of the numbers of dogs there are many more proven trainers. So when it sounds like GSPs are up to the task, get real, we are simply out gunned.

One thing I would like explained is why do you need 2 all age wins to qualify, but it is judged by shooting dog standards? Or is that not the case.

We look for class in GSPs also, but I will admitt many do run with low tails same as pointers.

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:44 pm

Bill Holtan wrote:
Razor wrote:A little Brittany once showed up to a three hour trial and smoked 19 pointers. I would have loved to see the run it took for the little dog to win. The trial was the 1973 International Endurance Championship. To top it off the dog was the current standing Bench Champion, I bet the pointer boys loved that fact. He was the only dog entered other than pointers.
That is a 90 minute stake but a great win for the Brit none the less.

It was a 3 hour stake.

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:08 pm

gunner wrote:Why is it those continental breed clubs so often ask the pointer and setter guys to judge their stakes?

Like Joe said, because you have horses. Because we know you won't be biased since your breed will most likely not be running. We can't get a shorthair judge to judge a shorthair championship simply because they probably have a dog running in it. It does happen but it is easier to get a different breed judge. Also, there are a lot more of pointer/setter guys than any other breed so there are more judges to choose from.

gunner · Post by **gunner** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:47 pm

I believe there was a short lived 3 hour endurance championship for continental breeds. Maybe someone could share where and when it exsisted.
I don't recall ever hearing of a shorthair winning any 3 hour stake. Open or closed.
Someone at one time mentioned Dan Hoke having a shorthair qualified for the National Bird Dog Championship. Anybody know what qualifying stakes did he win?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:06 pm

If you are going to come up with a reason why continental breeds don't run at Ames at least come up with a good one.

Hey Joe, you talking to me? Because I'm pretty sure I said Shooting Dogs, not All Age dogs. A dog with less style can win an AA stake easier than it can win a Shooting Dog stake IMO.

We look for class in GSPs also, but I will admitt many do run with low tails...

How can you tell??

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:12 pm

Ross on this one I'm going to give you a hard time.It doesn't take the full length tail to know if it's 12:00 or cracking.I know you like to give us Dock Tails some greef but I think it's more on the joking side then serious.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:24 pm

Ted,

If it's docked, it can't crack. There is nothing to crack......

The difference is dramatic, even among Pointers. When you see the good ones go, there's nothing like it.

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:11 pm

A high cracking tail is not the total picture of Class in my opinion.A dog that has Snap,Crackle and Pop,moves Fluidly while going to all the Right Places,finds and Slams his birds with Power Brakes,looks like a Stone Statue on point,and doesn't blink an eye at Wing and Shot.That's Class in my book also.High tail or No Tail.And the one Shorthair I've seen so far who Has It in my opinion is Bruce Schaffer's Dalin.He''ll make some noise even in the open stakes in the future if he's judged Fairly.He already has some Open placements.The first time I seen him run my thoughts were "Whoa Man, look at this guy".

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:19 pm

"Whoa Man, look at this guy"

I love those dogs, no matter the breed. ...

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:28 pm

Ross of course you are right about the cracking part but my point is if a dock tail is busy,ticking,or what ever you want to call it it would be cracking if long.My avatar dog pic,that is how she stands birds & that is how she runs with tail in motion very animated,popping motion,fast & quick.Her sire Sonny the same & is why he has been accused of being more pointer then GSP.There is no doubt that pointers are the epidome of the pointing breeds but not every one wants to own one yet!!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:40 pm

Ted,

I love a good goin' dog. The breed doesn't matter to me and I agree 100% with what Bojack wrote, it's the whole package. One of my favorite dogs to watch work is a little GSP Derby that is now with Blue Dawn. She was raised as a hunting dog and they are trying to teach her how to take an edge, but that little girl has a ton of ground speed and in our piney woods, she just makes me smile. I don't know if she'll make a trial dog or not but she is the queen of the pines on the plantation. When Jazzy and my Pointer, Sarah are braced in the woods it's "Whoa Man, look at them girls go!"

...

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:51 pm

My little girl does pretty well in the piney woods also,will be running in Leesburg this wk end.Last time there 2nd in a 28 OGD stake.I know you like class dogs Ross as I do & I'm just razzin you.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:25 am

Maybe I am asking for it here....

We look for class in GSPs also, but I will admitt many do run with low tails...

As they should.

Ok, I am shutting up now.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:14 am

Someone at one time mentioned Dan Hoke having a shorthair qualified for the National Bird Dog Championship. Anybody know what qualifying stakes did he win?

Not sure what the Nat'l Bird Dog Ch. is?? Are you referring to the Nat'l Open SD Championship @ Hoffman?? I'm pretty sure Dunfur's Where You Ben was qualified for it when he was RU at the Oregon Open SD in 01...and Dan I believe qualified one of Steve Short's dogs, Morticia maybe, with a win at the Cascade OSD prior to that, can't remember exactly. Of course, I do know 100% that Stitch (D&D's Blackrock Stitch), my classless no style stub tail, was qualified for it with his Idaho Open win in 04. Other GSP's I know that have AF SD championship placements on the Am. side include my deceased dog Rocky (Waycool's Blackrock InoIkan) and my current dog Bugsy (HBV Dunfur's Plan B), both with RU Ch's at the Reg. 9 ASD (a wild bird prairie trial essentially), Dennis Pennington's Brandy had 2 RU Ch's also at the Reg. 9 ASD. On the AA side of things, Craig Kelly's Hunter (Dunfur's Latest Edition - 1/2 brother to my Rocky) won the Reg. 10 Am. AA Ch. a few years back. Another "Continental" out this way that has found the championship winner's circle is Gary and Kate Brown's viszla with at least one, but I think maybe two, championship placements. Can't even begin to think of all the weekend stake AF trial placements GSP's handled by a variety of folks have had "out here".

As far as AA stakes go, I've only entered Amateur. Ch's thus far (pretty intimidated to enter the open AA stakes!!) and feel we've have had some decent outings, just got beat by better performances. R-Heaton handled my Bugsy at the Reg. 10 Am AA for me last fall and had a good outing I'm told - just got beat by a couple dogs that have qualified for and graced the grounds at Ames - Tekoa Mtn. Patriot and Spectre Pete. Not bad company to at least be putting a little pressure on even if they beat ya' in the end! Personally I've never felt slighted in any way competing in the open breed AF championship stakes with my dogs. Now R-Heaton - you might be able to coerce a little story from him about the time he got "shorttailed"!!

All the above said, if my goal in life was to compete and win open AA AF trials, I'd get a pointer out of proven generations of AA lines - just makes the most sense.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:00 am

Now I am totally confused, and ya it doesn't take much. First you need 2 all age win to qualify for a national that is run on shooting dog standards. Second, Ross there is more to a dog than just the tail, but although there are GSPs and others that run with high cracking tails, and can beat pointers, they can't win. Or is just that bias. And like I said thats okay I guess, but call it what it is.

BrettBryan · Post by **BrettBryan** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:41 am

Joe,

Hopefully, someone with more knowlege about it will answer your question about the 2 quailifying AA wins and then running on Shooting dog standards up a Ames. I actually like how they do it. For a dog to win on the praries in a true AA stake, then come down and win at Ames tells me a lot about a dog. I guess what I'm saying is, a wild bug eyed dog might win one on the prarie, but he better have a little sense when he shows up at Ames. I think it shows some versatility in a dog. This is just my opinion. Hope someone with more knowledge will chime in.

Bay Mud · Post by **Bay Mud** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:49 am

Joe Amatulli wrote:Now I am totally confused, and ya it doesn't take much. First you need 2 all age win to qualify for a national that is run on shooting dog standards.

Joe,
I'm pretty sure DGF is referring specifically to the Nat. Open SD.
http://www.nosdchampionship.com/qualifications.htm

BayMud

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:58 am

Joe,
I'm pretty sure DGF is referring specifically to the Nat. Open SD.
http://www.nosdchampionship.com/qualifications.htm

Yah, disregard all the babble I wrote!!

I thought maybe the Nat'l OSD was the trial Gunner was referring to when he said "National Bird Dog Championship".

I now see in another thread that's what folks are calling the National Championship at Ames - I'd never heard it called anything but "The National Championship" so got thrown off track. I do like the "National Bird Dog Championship" though - get rid of the preconceived AA/SD standards and get on with the task of picking the one that applies itself best to the country, conditions and birds!!

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:31 am

Joe Amatulli wrote:First you need 2 all age win to qualify for a national that is run on shooting dog standards

Joe,,, you have mentioned this a couple times now,,,, the National Committee has picked a certain number and venue of trials that will qualify a dog to go to Nationals,,,all of which are AA trials. I have never heard that Ames was judged on Shooting Dog standards,,,, not sure where your getting that part,,,,, unless you are just plain referring to the grounds which I hear (never been) lend themselves more to a shooting dog type race. You gotta remember one of the differences between AA and SD is application,,,, is the dog running the country has big as it can be run? So if that is only 150 yds so be it,,,, I think one of the things they look for is,,, did the dog reach when he could reach,, did the dog come in and handle when he needed to handle. Only my thoughts on it, never been yet.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:15 pm

Rich I have been to Grand Junction, twice, and you are right it is doxed feilds, better suited for a shooting dog. The shooting dog standard was told to me by people that have run there and by one of the judges. I will say that there seems to be a difference in GSP All Age and pointer All Age, not that I know the difference, just what I have been told. I was trying to get some of the pointer people that have been there to comment on it. We have certianly beaten the all age thing to death on this forum and don't want to go there again, but to me an all age is an all age and a shooting dog is a shooting dog, they are not the same, so the logic of this excapes me. I have been told that trying to get a dog to go 3 hrs. tends to brake them down, it's in the training, why you would want to take a national caliber all age and brake them down, I just don't get. I wonder how many dogs that they did this to never came back from it. Believe me when I tell you that I am not criticizing or be judgemental, I have only been doing this for 22 years, I just don't understand why somethings are done the way they are. And I am still confused.

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:37 pm

Point taken,,,,, and yea I have heard about the same thing.

KY Grouse Hunter · Post by **KY Grouse Hunter** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:04 pm

Go snowatch. Finished the 3 hrs. and accounted for 4 finds.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:05 pm

How big do you bet the gallery will be tomorrow for the two setters? Looks like great weather...party cloudy and 55ish...

Nice run Snowatch, hope White Twist completes the 3 hours...fingers crossed

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:07 pm

There was a GSP half-qualified for the National Championship (yes, the one at Ames). Can't recall the dog or handler, but it was a pointer guy that died young.

I have been hearing the "It takes a Shooting Dog performance to win at Ames" since 1963. Didn't believe it then, don't believe it now. I have ran my Brittanys on the same courses as the NC in the Ames Amateur, and we haven't won yet because they don't run big enough. I have seen dogs pointed out three fields over at near 3/4 of a mile, not what I call Shooting Dog range. The many of the dogs will be gone for 15 - 20 minutes at a time at the NC, again, not what you expect from a Shooting Dog. Now they can't run at Ames like they can on the prairies or even Texas, but they best show some leg.

Neil

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:53 pm

I am rooting for the local boy...at least local to me. Rivertons Blackeyed Pea owned by Matt Coverdale I think. Rich Robertson is running the dog. I also kinda wanted Sir Lancelot to win it considering the bad luck Hoyle experienced with him a few years ago but he did not make it this time.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:39 pm

With 5 dogs left to go...here is the list of those who finished the three hours...My hopes are OUT...

Shell Creek Coin had 5 finds spaced throughout a forward well applied race. Finished the three hours.
Game Maker: Ran a smooth forward race; finished the three hours with 5 finds, 1 back, and 2 unproductives
Heyu Two Pete: Ran a strong forward race; 4 finds and 3 backs
Prairieland Pride: A strong forward race with 4 finds, 1 back and a good finish
Lester's Absolute: A forward well applied race; 4 finds, 2 backs and 1 unproductive
Lester's Snowatch: Ran a forward well paced race; finished the three hours with 4 finds
Amirage: Ran a forward handling race; finished the three hours with 3 finds
In the Shadow: A forward well applied race; 3 finds, 2 backs and 1 unproductive
Jetsetter: Ran a strong, well applied, forward race; finished the three hours with 3 finds and 1 unproductive
Cedaroak Bee Sting: 2 finds, 1 back, 1 unproductive; finished the three hours
Survivor's Real Deal: A strong forward race; 2 finds and 1 unproductive
Erins' Bad River: 2 finds and 1 unproductive; finished strong
B B's Pike: 1 find and 1 unproductive during a strong forward race

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:04 pm

So far I am thinking Shell Creek Coin and Hey You Two Pete

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:14 pm

Would love to be a fly on the horse's mane right now listening to the judges...Boy, if only those three horses could talk

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:30 pm

Read am article from a Memphis area newspaper saying that Coins performance was good, but not great. And that the 2 UP's is hard to win with. It seems its still in the air.

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:01 pm

The National Site gives a liittle stronger description of Coin's performance And he didn't have any Uproductives:

Shell Creek Coin had five finds spaced throughout a forward well applied race. Finished the three hours.
I'm betting there's probably going to be a callback and you can bet Coin will be in it. there's six close performances so far and it still could be a toss up.And the dog with the most finds may not nessacarily be the winner.

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:40 pm

BoJack wrote:I'm betting there's probably going to be a callback

When was the last time they ever did a callback? What kinda of callback would they do? Run them for 5 hours???

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:48 pm

There is a pretty extensive thread going on that addresses a call-back over on the Cover Dog Site

http://members3.boardhost.com/coverdog/ ... 96561.html

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:51 pm

R-Heaton wrote:
BoJack wrote:I'm betting there's probably going to be a callback
When was the last time they ever did a callback? What kinda of callback would they do? Run them for 5 hours???

Don't know the year but think the last callback at the national was a setter Wiregrass Thor, probably would have won but he failed to back.. I am going from memory on this from when I worked for Collier Smith. He handled Wiregrass Thor. Gunner might know some more details on this.

Mo

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:59 pm

What I found interesting in that thread is that before a call-back they tell everyone that all dogs are "still under consideration" just in case a train wreck happens and both dogs in the call-back disqualify themselves.

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:33 pm

HEATON: THIS IS WHEN:
2004-Miller's On Line and Broadway Silver Belle.On Line had four finds in the 1st series and Bell had Eight.Online won it on the call back at the 42 min mark(not 5 hours) with 3 finds:
The winner of the 2004 National Championship was Miller’s Online, pointer male, owned by Chip McEwen and T. E. Browning of Alva, Florida and Mike Furney of Panama City Beach, Florida and handled by Rick Furney. Miller’s Online ran in the 2nd brace on Monday of the first week under declining weather conditions, recording 4 finds and an excellent ground race during his 3 hour performance in the 1st series. Miller’s Online and Broadway Silver Belle were called back for a 2nd series to determine the champion. In a head to head battle on the afternoon field trial course, Miller’s Online scored 3 perfect finds with an exceptional ground race in the 42-minute call back to claim the 2004 National Championship.

Jetsetter's handler was already told after Jet's brace to be ready in case of a Callback,and there's been some excellent peformances since then. I say a High possibility of a Callback.Call your buddy Jim(Jetsetter's owner)and get his opinion.He stayed with you for a week last year didn't he?

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:10 am

BoJack wrote:Call your buddy Jim(Jetsetter's owner)and get his opinion.He stayed with you for a week last year didn't he

It was a few years back,,,,, he hasn't made the west coast swing now in a maybe 4 years. As I remember he was still waffling on what trainer to put Jetsetter with. I was just asking when was the last call back,,,, relax son.

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:53 am

Heaton Wrote:I was just asking when was the last call back,,,, relax son.

Yea that's what I thought that's why I answered you so you'd know then.I'm always relaxed son.But with you it seems like I always hear your hammer cock when I post.Is that just my imagination or what??

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:51 am

BoJack wrote:Is that just my imagination

Yes

I think it will be interesting and who know's what the judges will do. But in the last few years I have had the opportunity to spend time with 2 of the National judges 1 present and 1 of the past,,,, both tell the same story. Apparently there is a room in the big house where after the end of the day they go sit and discuss who is winning and they do not leave there until that is decided. They both made that point quite clear. So at the start of each day they have only 1 winner. Now with 3 judges and lets say they can't come to an agreement I would think there would only be 3 dogs at the most in a call back,,,, if each judge liked a separate dog. But as we all know every trial is different,,, so your guess is as good as mine.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:40 pm

But in the last few years I have had the opportunity to spend time with 2 of the National judges 1 present and 1 of the past,,,,

I'm not sure that lunch at Hooter's a couple times really counts as quality time man, cmon!

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:26 pm

Just got some current gossip,,,,, Snowwatch and Jetsetter are being heavily looked at. It would be cool to see Jetsetter pull it off.

scotly50 · Post by **scotly50** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:34 pm

I was thinking it was between Snowatch and Coin. I don't think the setter out did either of those dogs. But who knows what they look at.

Flush · Post by **Flush** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:42 pm

scotly50 wrote:I was thinking it was between Snowatch and Coin. I don't think the setter out did either of those dogs. But who knows what they look at.

Curious what you base that on? What you read on the Ames site or from actual observers?

I have seen several folks who were there say that they felt JetSetter had the best race up until that point and that included seeing Coin and Snowatch run.

It will be interesting

Flush · Post by **Flush** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:47 pm

I would also like to add that as a Setter guy I really hope they have a call back with Jet in it.
I would actually RATHER have that than have them give Jet the nod outright right now. That would cause a ton of controversy.
I want a Setter to win Ames, but I want it to be a true win, not a questionable one that for years people will say was a "pity" win.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:51 pm

Hey You Two Pete all the way.

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:32 pm

Won't be much longer now,unless thre is a callback.