2009 Ames - Nat. CH - Same Owner/Handler?

[PntrRookie]

Some answers to the "next stud" thread got me wondering...For 2009 only 5 of the 40+ dogs nominated at Ames for the National Championship are handled by the owner...All the others have different owners than the handler. Those of you who may know the history of the National Ch., who was the last person to handle AND own (outright) his/her own dog to the Championship? Do people in the trial "world" look differently at those guys/gals who do it on their own? It actually puts a smile on my face when I see someone doing it themselves...Best of Luck to everyone! I am pulling for White Powder Pete and Phillips White Twist.

[Joe Amatulli]

That's easy Ferrel Miller, got him in a world of trouble!!

[PntrRookie]

Thanks Joe, so maybe I should highlight the other question of my post...Do people in the trial "world" look differently at those guys/gals who do it on their own?

[ezzy333]

That's easy Ferrel Miller, got him in a world of trouble!!

Why or how did handling his own dogs get him in trouble?

Ezzy

[Yawallac]

I believe that Tommy Davis has won the National Championship three times and he is handling his on dog Strut. I see this year that he has a co-owner on Strut, but I believe that is in name only. The only place Strut has ever lived is with Tommy on the Plantation.

[PntrRookie]

I believe that Tommy Davis has won the National Championship three times...

When Tommy won it was it his own dogs?

but I believe that is in name only.

And a source of "operating income" I would assume If not, why have another name on it?

[Yawallac]

I heard some of the numbers floating around last year that people were offering for a piece of Strut....... It's no wonder he has a "co-owner".

Actually, it looks like Tommy won it four times. Wow.

http://www.amesplantation.org/field-tri ... mpions.asp

[Neil Mace]

I don't have the records in front of me, but going by memory, recently the NC has been won by Miller (as said), Tom Honeker with CedarOak Kate, Billy Blackwell with Warhoot Rote. Fred Corder came close last year with Game Maker. Blackwell had High Plains Drifter a local favorite qualified 3 or 4 times.

And if you are going to consider a pro like Tommy as an owner handler, then I think you must include Hoyle Eaton, Larry Huffman with most of the Whippoorwill dogs, and a few others.

When anyone wins, a true amateur like Tom Honecker, or a semi-pro like Miller and Blackwell or a full time pro, all sincerely congratulate them on a great accomplishment. I know of no other sport where the word gentleman so aptly applies. Dr. Corder was the first to shake Dr. Huffman's hand, not showing the disappointment he had to have felt, when Wild Agin won, even though many had Game Maker as the winner.

You will have to look elsewhere for intrigue and "back biting", this is about the dogs. Miller lied on registrations, it had nothing to do with winning the NC.

Neil

[ezzy333]

You will have to look elsewhere for intrigue and "back biting", this is about the dogs. Miller lied on registrations, it had nothing to do with winning the NC.

NeilNeil Mace
Rank: Master Hunter

Posts: 243
Joined: 29 Jun 2007, 12:05
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Thats the way I remember it too. Still curious to what Joe is refering to though.

Ezzy

[PntrRookie]

Thanks for the insight Neil...Hope to see Sean in there sometime with his Erin dogs.

[Joe Amatulli]

There are a lot of people that felt that if Miller did not win the Grand Nationals, the problems with the registations would have never happened. That is the romer I no nothing as a fact. And by the way Ezzy this is way way over your head.

[Yawallac]

And if you are going to consider a pro like Tommy as an owner handler,

Neil,

He's not an owner/handler?? He breeds, raises and trains his own dogs. He doesn't handle anyone else's dogs. What would you call him?

...and what is a semi-pro anyway?? Never heard or read that term being used to classify a trialer before.

[RayGubernat]

Since Mr. Miller had a competitive dog poisoned to death on the Ames grounds, I think it might be fair to say that some of the folks who played the all age game were not members of his fan club.

And just so you don't think that sort of stuff is reserved for amateurs who want to take what some pro's feel is "their" purse money, a top dog of the late Ed Husser was also poisoned.

Some of them boys don't play nice.

RayG

[RayGubernat]

Ross -

I cannot believe that you have not heard the term semi-pro in reference to field trialers.

There are lots of them in the game.

It is actually extraordinarily difficult to find the necessary time to train, travel and compete at anything resembling a high level in amateur stakes, not to mention expensive, without some help. Folks who have the time to train and travel and compete, usually don't have the money it takes to do that and still be able to take care of a family.

The pressure to do a little training, "on the side", or "for a friend" and handle the dog again, "for a friend" at a trial can be very real, in order to make ends meet and still compete at the higher end of the amateur trialing scene. The financial pressure to have "partners" that are in actuality "clients" can be such that the person could not continue to compete without the financial assistance that such arrangements provides.

Not saying it is right or wrong, but it is what it is. The right or the wrong is in the intent of the arrangement. If it is a true partnership with both partners competing and participating as they can, I see nothing wrong. Heck, to do a decent job at a horseback trial the handler needs a scout that knows the dog and the handler, and a scout that the handler can trust, so a partnership arrangement when competing is VERY common...almost a necessity to be successful. At least that is how I see it.

RayG

RayG

[Yawallac]

Not saying it is right or wrong, but it is what it is.

I see no AF classification of a semi-pro. It is my understanding that if you take money for training, you are a pro. Period. I'd love to be classified an Am. as my experience as a Horseback trialer is new. But I can't because I train dogs for money. Even though the dogs that I handle are mine, I still have to be classified as a Pro. If there are folks out there, as you suggest, that are being compensated and they are not declaring themselves as Pros then they are cheating. Unless I am missing something and I hope that I am because I would very much like to be able torun my dogs in Am. Championships.

Am I misunderstanding the rule? Can I run Am. stakes as long as they are my dogs? I train gun dogs but I trial my dogs. Does that make a diference? Is it only what I handle in a trial?

[KY Grouse Hunter]

This is some good stuff. I have been waiting for a good discussion like this for a while.

Ok, here is a scenario, if I have trained a couple dogs(foot hunting) for some money before I started trialing, and I run only my own and self-trained dogs in those trials, am I considered a Am or a Pro?

[birdogg42]

Since Mr. Miller had a competitive dog poisoned to death on the Ames grounds, I think it might be fair to say that some of the folks who played the all age game were not members of his fan club.

Some of them boys don't play nice.

RayG

I assume he never found out who did it. If that were me, and i found out who done that, some SOB would have wished HE ate that poison!

[Flush]

KY Grouse Hunter,

You would be considered a Pro, at least by American Field rules. You took money for training a dog (regardless if you run those dogs or not) which is called out specifically in the rules, I'm using the AFCTA as my basis here (which is part of the AF) but I think that part of the rule is true of all AF venues. If you don't take money for training for 3 years you can then "regain" your amateur status. As I read the rules you would need at actually file a petition to "prove" you are now an amateur, but I doubt most "small timers" would do that.

I think the point that Ray was making about "semi-pro" is that there are amateurs out there that do training "favors" for friends and others. Technically they aren't pros because they haven't trained for direct compensation, but likely in some cases they are paid back indirectly with favors from their friends. I can see how that would be viewed as a grey area as friends often do favors for friends and it could be hard to determine where favors stop and compensation begins.

I know some Ameteurs are pretty wealthy and make trialling a more or less full time career, regardless if the barely skirt the rules or not, some folks don't like the fact they are still considered amateurs even though they have as much time and money into the sport as the pros.

Here are the AFTCA rules:
http://www.aftca.org/by-laws%20&%20runn ... TICLE_II_3

[RayGubernat]

Ross -

The AFTCA rules are pretty clear. I really don't like or necessarily agree with the part about if you are a guide you are considered a pro, but if you take money for training...you are a pro.

Like I said, there are plenty of folks who pool their resources and trial together because they couldn't afford to do it separately...and that, to me is terrific and in the best interest of the amateur sport. There are others who train for a select segment of the public and do it in such a way as to maintain their amateur status ...technically.

Those are the semi- pros...to me.

RayG

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

There are others who train for a select segment of the public and do it in such a way as to maintain their amateur status ...technically.

Those are the semi- pros...to me.

If you train for someone regardless of what for and regardless of who it is if you take money for it you are a pro. Not a semi-pro. If you accept money for training then that makes you a professional at it.

[lvrgsp]

I like to call em PRO-AM's, there amatuers who are either retired, or have enough money to attain the resources and train like pros. There are a few amatuers out there better than some pros, they just don't need or want the publics money to attain the pro status...........

Just my opinion,
Chip

[R-Heaton]

Come on guys,,,, one of you has to know how Ferrell was making his money? They changed the rules only 4 years to close that loop hole.

I personally have never heard the "semi pro" in trialing either.

I'm using the AFCTA as my basis here (which is part of the AF)

The AFTCA is not part of the American Field. AFTCA trials are recongnized by the AF,,,,, but or two different organizations,,, one is privately owned the other is not.

[Pineywoods]

That's easy Ferrel Miller, got him in a world of trouble!!

Ferrel won in 2002 with Miller's True Spirit. The trouble came in 2004 when Rickey Furney won with Millers on line which
Mike Furney and Chip McEwen had bought from Ferrel as a finished dog. The problem with the papers was on a breeding
of Ferrel's stud and a female of Don Wiggins. On line as it turned out was not out of the female on the papers but was out
of her litter mate.

Tommy Davis was not the owner of the dog on any of his four wins at Ames. Tommy has owned many of his dogs in more
recent times but he works on a plantation as a trainer/handler which makes him a pro. I don't no if it had anything to do
with it but he took on a co owner after Strut got snake bit at the Florida championship in January 2008. I hate to guess
what the vet bills were on that.

Larry Huffman's two wins were Whippoorwill wild card in 1999 owned by Dr.Terry Terlep and Whippoorwill wild again 2008
co owned by Dr. John D. Huffman and Dr. Terry Terlep.

Ferrel's 2002 win was the last win by a amateur. The thing I loved about Ferrel was he was owner/handler/breeder/trainer.
Gotta pull for a guy like that.

[Neil Mace]

The semi-pro tag is used around here for the guys that have found a way to make money by selling some of their young dogs for pretty big money. The Derby Invitational has become a dog auction, with some reportedly selling for $35,000+. I have heard that a dog is worth $10,000 per Ch win, $5,000 for a RU.

I meant nothing negative by use of the term, they are not skirting the rules, and with DNA if they just aged their Derbies correctly I see nothing wrong in what they do. If you will remember it was the dam not the sire that got Ferrel in trouble, I believe it came from "holding" them back a year or two. Sean recently took RU in a A-A Ch with a dog that is 14 months on paper, not saying she is not, just I am not sure DNA takes care of the age thing.

Dogs have been treated for poison while at Ames, I have seen nothing that proves when and how the poison was ingested.

BTW, I am a great fan of Tommy Davis, he is the best handler I have ever had the pleasure of watching, he shows his dog to the judges without a lot of hard riding, sets right in front of the judges and lets the dog do it. The Strut dog is every bit as good as you hear; he and Game Maker, Solid Reward, High Plains Drifter and Ida'O Prissila have done some of the best jobs and not won that I have seen. I saw Strut found on point 7 times in an hour at CedarOak, the judges never saw him make game, we just rode over a hill or around a bend and there he would be - on point, with the birds dead ahead, the scout only function was to hold his horse. Tommy was braced with his cousin, Randy Downs, two gentlemen that know how to show a dog.

Please do not try to read something into what I write, I have great respect for all the owners/handlers, true - more for some than others, but I consider them all friends that participate in a sport I love.

And sure I know most of the rumors, I just chose to operate on fact.

Neil

[Joe Amatulli]

Pineywoods what you wrote is pretty much what I have herd, but the question still remains, if Miller was not as stong a competitor as he was and not as abbrasive as he was would all that happened, would he have been suspended and the championship taken away? I have not been to his place , but I herd that at any given time there are 100 pups running around together with no consern on who is who, when DNA was not required no dig deal, sounds like something is not right.

[Joe Amatulli]

Ezzy did you get your answer?

[Yawallac]

Ray and Neil,

Thank you.

[slistoe]

Miller would not have been suspended if he had admitted to wrongdoing (his stud dog checked out on DNA) and had paid the fine. From what I understand he refused to admit wrongdoing in the matter and refused to pay the fine. He was suspended. The owner of the dam that did not pass DNA paid the fine and is still in business.

I only met Mr. Miller twice, but he was certainly not abrasive in those meetings and I was impressed by the level of sportsmanship he displayed on course.

[Joe Amatulli]

I am only commenting on what I have been told. I personlly greatly admire any amateur that competes at that level and consistently beats the pros. I also heard that it was more a peronal thing between him and Bernie, but again I don't know anything as a fact. I also want to say that it was a bad deal, what ever happened needs to be put to bed and the feild trial world needs to go on. I should also say that I should have never brought it this up. The pointer world is not my world and have no business commenting on it, that is why I didn't answer Ezzy the first time he asked.

[Pineywoods]

Pineywoods what you wrote is pretty much what I have herd, but the question still remains, if Miller was not as stong a competitor as he was and not as abbrasive as he was would all that happened, would he have been suspended and the championship taken away? I have not been to his place , but I herd that at any given time there are 100 pups running around together with no consern on who is who, when DNA was not required no dig deal, sounds like something is not right.

Joe the championship was not taken away, Ferrel was not the owner or handler of Millers on line when he won the 2004
championship. On line was and still is owned by Mike Furney and Chip McEwen and handled by Rickey Furney to this very
day. Now they had to jump through some hoops to get it so they could use him as a stud. Don Wiggins also did every thing
he was ask to try and clear that whole mess up. Ferrel as I have heard was not as willing to help.

Slistoe I agree Ferrel Miller has always been a really nice guy when I've been a round him and I always was a fan of his.
His dog's did make there mark on the breed and the field trail world.

[Joe Amatulli]

Pinewoods I remember it differently, but I am going to leave it at that. Again I had no business commenting on it, that is not my world and I have enough problems keeping up and out of trouble in the GSP world. Thanks for the info.

[Bill Holtan]

Pinewoods I remember it differently, but I am going to leave it at that. Again I had no business commenting on it, that is not my world and I have enough problems keeping up and out of trouble in the GSP world. Thanks for the info.

Joe I know you are trying to get excused from this, but I just need to clarify that Pineywoods pretty much has it dead on.

[slistoe]

Pinewoods I remember it differently, but I am going to leave it at that. Again I had no business commenting on it, that is not my world and I have enough problems keeping up and out of trouble in the GSP world. Thanks for the info.

Now that you know the truth, I trust you will remember that. And yes, you did have no business commenting with an air of authority on something that you did not know anything about - only rumor and hearsay.

http://www.americanfield.com/Pages/DNA&FDSB.html

[Joe Amatulli]

Wow.....Now I understand why they resort to poisoning dogs in the pointer word. Have a good life!!!!!!!

[slistoe]

Did you read the link?