Potential breeding...

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

This has been quite the thread. The thing I think that is crazy is I never said I wanted a dog that could run AF AA stakes and beat pointers but it has turned into thats what I want it seems?? I want dogs with stamina, endurance dogs that can run hour stakes I don't have any that would run AA let alone an hour stake I've got good Gundog range dogs and I'm happy with them. I just am looking for something more outta my dogs in the future. I think on paper and what it has to offer that breeding Ebbie to Chuck would be a great thing. I beleive dogs would come out having the charateristics I'm looking for. I have no problem with staying to a standard but you can't tell me that there aren't any breeders out there that breed outside the box? And with the things a pro handler can do in a show ring I would bet I know of one handler that could get Chuck within the standard in the show ring. So if there are handlers out there that can stack a dog to fit in the standard and finish its CH whats that say about the standard then. There are so many variables in everything. I have no interest in the show ring doesn't mean I don't care about it. I have a young prospect that hopfully will get to be a DC if all comes together right but I won't show him have somebody that will to that for me. But what i'm saying is my desire is field dogs and I want one at the top of the game someday and hopefully breeding to this dog will do that for me time will tell though. As I've said before there just aren't any guarantees...

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Karen, first, I'm sure they would take our entries, those couple of AR trials are about 8 hours away. The rest are anywhere from 15 to 35 hours away. Second, it's funny, the Field shows about 99% of the brit trials as brit only. Those must not have been closed, just the other breeds must not have entered out of pure fear. You named 22 club trials, out of how many total brit clubs and total trials per year. If there are 75 brit clubs with at least 2 and sometimes 3 events per year, we're talking 450 trials total per year., therefore, around 2,200 stakes. You named around 22 with some open stakes. So, around 22 clubs with three events, with 4 stakes open, that's 264 total stakes of the 2,200 stakes. 10% of the stakes open to all breeds. Not a high percentage at all. Thank you for making my point.

Further, in your area, it may be relatively short drives to attend trials and there may be many, but here it's most often 7 hours of hard driving. Nowadays a 450 mile drive round trip costs us $260 in fuel, $90 for two nights in motel, $75 food, $300 for entries, so around an $800 weekend. If clubs would open their entries, they'd get enough dogs to actually turn a profit. I will bet many clubs will be forced to open all stakes due to low entries, before it's over.

Greg, being a statistician, just thought I'd add a few number based facts for ya'. We could look at the thousands of GSP stakes and the extremely low percentage closed to other breeds, but my point was made by Karen.

[ezzy333]

I agree with you here, but if you really want to compete on the AF AA circuit, get a pointer or setter. They are best suited for that type of competition. Who said a Brittany HAD to compete in that venue? I guess that's my whole point here. Breed for the VERY BEST BRITTANY you possibly can, but recognize that the breed just may have some limitations, which is fine!

Well you and I agree. The problem is all the competitive folks out there, just human nature really. If a dog that is 2" over standard holds a competitive edge in trials, it's going to be awful tempting to breed and run that dog. Although I do agree with you about not trying to make a Britt something it is not, if two in-standard Britts are bred and the result is a pure-bred Britt that is 2" over and he happens to be a knock out bird-dog, who are we to say he isn't a Brittany? Of course it can be taken to extremes, but sometimes I think you have to ask yourself if our man-made standards aren't too artificial? I guess you have to draw the line somewhere, but I know there are plenty of folks who have an awful hard time accepting their breed has limitations, especially when they are man-made...

This is exactly what I have been trying to explain. As long as there are breeds and they are different what is the big push to make them all alike. In all the years I have been involved the breeds are built different and perform different not by accident but for a purpose. I have no problem with a Brit or a Gsp not competeing in an event that was designed for the pointer. But I also see no problem with the pointer not being as good in many other areas. We each have a breed and many of us also are able to appreciate the other breeds and what they have to offer. When it becomes as important to win a field trial as it is to own and enjoy and maintain a wonderful hunting dog then I guess I will do what I hear so many of you say you do but for now I like a Brittany and the last I looked the Brittany is a cobby built dog that stands between 17 1/2 and 21 inches, It is a leggy dog that is as tall as it is long, has a 4" tail or less, and has a longer coat that is not curly and is O&W, L&W, or some combination of the two. Yep, they are built different and may not run as fast as a ppointer, but the pointer doesn't run as fast as a greyhound either but they are still nice dogs though they don't do well at the track. But I don't think they should be crossed with the greyhound as I think the pointer is a pretty good dog as they are.

Lets everybody that owns or breeds one of our sporting dog breeds agree to breed the best dog of that breed possible while maintaining the breed. That way we will continue to have great dogs in each breed that our grandkids will be able to tell from each other.

Ezzy

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

I like that I'm the one that started this post and now I can't get a word in edge wise. Ezzy I never said I wanted what you think I want you keep talking that I want a dog that runs like a pointer or setter. If I wanted that I'd go buy one. You've missed my point and obvisously several people think It's the wrong thing to do but just as many think it will be a great breeding. The one thing I know is not everyone will be happy ever with everything I do O well. I won't ruin the breed by breeding to this dog that is 22-23 inches tall and I will ask Terry exactly how tall he is to shed some light cause none of us know for sure. If you don't like to breeding don't buy one but they will be excellent birddogs I guarantee that. I do alot alot more guding and hunting than I do field trials anyway but its fun to have dogs that are great for all venues.

Robbie

[Greg Jennings]

Greg, being a statistician, just thought I'd add a few number based facts for ya'. We could look at the thousands of GSP stakes and the extremely low percentage closed to other breeds, but my point was made by Karen.

As long as it's "statisician" with a little "s", I can claim that. Statistician with a big S, I can't..

So, with that said, I feel required to point out that Karen produced a list that wasn't intended to be exhaustive. So, calculating percentage of open trials or stakes isn't kosher.

With that said, a lot of trials close stakes. I don't think we can leap from there to fear of other breeds being the prime motivation.

For example, I know that some clubs that are blessed with many members that close stakes to other breeds in order to accommodate the members. Another, I know some trials that close open stakes so that a pro that is entering a bunch of dogs will have space. This being a case where the pro's entries essentially pay for the trial. One more...and this is the trivial case...is when the trial is a national breed trial or associated closely with a national breed event.

Personally, I just vote with my dollars...what few of them I have left.

Greg J.

[Greg Jennings]

I like that I'm the one that started this post and now I can't get a word in edge wise. Ezzy I never said I wanted what you think I want you keep talking that I want a dog that runs like a pointer or setter. If I wanted that I'd go buy one. You've missed my point and obvisously several people think It's the wrong thing to do but just as many think it will be a great breeding. The one thing I know is not everyone will be happy ever with everything I do O well. I won't ruin the breed by breeding to this dog that is 22-23 inches tall and I will ask Terry exactly how tall he is to shed some light cause none of us know for sure. If you don't like to breeding don't buy one but they will be excellent birddogs I guarantee that. I do alot alot more guding and hunting than I do field trials anyway but its fun to have dogs that are great for all venues.

Robbie

Robbie,
Sorry your thread was hijacked. It sounded to me like you're trying to produce a consistent litter of pups that will find good homes. You just fell afoul of some deeply held views on breeding that dog people have.

Greg J.

[ezzy333]

Well said Greg. Nice to see just honest open comments that give us all information with out any bias, just facts.

Ezzy

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

Greg,

Thanks I tought it was potentially a great litter then WOW. Its nice to see that some people see that I'm actually working to put together a great thing here. I really think it will produce some top class bird dogs.

robbie

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

A small sample does not show the facts by any means. Pointing out a small percentage of clubs who DO have some or even all open stakes still does not account for the many others who close all of their stakes to other breeds. Point remains, 90% of brit trials are closed, where 90% plus of GSP stakes are open. We need placements for nationals just like the brits, but we allow all breeds to enter most of our trials. Heaven forbid the facts getting in the way.

[wems2371]

Throw the show ring concept completely out of the picture, because it blurs the topic of meeting a standard and thus keeping the breeding conformationally similar. People obviously get very heated here about the showring, and you never need to enter a show ring to breed dogs true to standard. While it has been mentioned several times about there being no guarantees anyway, if you breed to a line that is known for a non-standard flaw, you are increasing your chances of reproducing that flaw in the masses. So my question would be, if it's known, what are the heights behind the stud dogs lineage. If he is the fluke, so to speak, in being overly tall...............then breeding him once into your kennel program is not going to be disastrous for the breed. However if his whole lineage breaks the standard, than you're just continuing the problem...............and breeding your own version of a brittany. When you ask an opinion though, I guess you leave yourself open........and you can't really fault those that don't want to compromise on that standard. Denise

[Karen]

What I'm really curious about is exactly what do you think this dog can bring to your program that dogs like Kid's Kid Lone River Moose couldn't or Clyde's Micro Breeze or The Rock II, or Havapal's Renegade Billy Boy couldn't or that Tommy Thomas's other dog Sirius can't? All are multiple hour winners, they've proven they have endurance, they all are winning AA dogs with nice pedigrees and they're all pretty nice examples of the Brittany breed. I picked these dogs because I'm familiar with them, but there are probably a dozen others that could be added to this list.

And if you wind up with the size, the setter head and the exceptionally long body that Chuck appears to have in your lines, how many generations do you think it'll take you to get rid of them, and do you think you'll lose the potentially added range and endurance doing so?

Now for Tru Blue, you are wrong. I counted 78 spring trials that were not breed classics or championships, 36 had at least some stakes open to all breeds and most had all stakes open to all breeds. So of the approximately 150 Brittany club trials a year, approximately 75 of them are open to all breeds, about 50%. I agree that more will open with rising fuel costs (as I stated 2 pages ago) but there are a lot of Brittanys out there competing against the other pointing breeds already.

So in the future I suggest you check the AKC events page to see if a trial is open to all breeds instead of just checking the Field. Some events are not dual sponsored.

[ezzy333]

Bob,

I am sorry as I am one of the ones that have continued this thread in a little different direction than what you had wanted. My very first post was my answer to you. I still like Microdot breedings field ability but was oversized and way too many of hid decendants are not in the standard of the Brit. If more run is your only desire you would possibly get it withthat breeding but you will get oversized dogs. Breeding oversize to small dogs doesn't produce average size but rather produces large and small with in the litter. I just think there are other dogs out there that would provide you with the sanme thing and do it without sacrificing your breed type and would help your dogs in all areas. My personall feeling are after years of experience is I will not ever breed to a dog that doesn not fit the general standard of the breed as a good Brit is way more important than a big running dog that doesn't fit any standard. Plus,I don't see that this dog has been any better than many others and there is no evidence as to what he would produce. Many others have a better record.

Ezzy

[kninebirddog]

i don't think Chuck is that far out ...plus with him being muscled up Like I have already described about the dog I was trying to trials how the show handler and I went back and forth on the dog..in order for her to stack him in he could Not be in physical shape where he could last even 10 minutes in the field ...I am dead serious about the round and rounds her and i went in over this dog...I told the owner to make up his mind what was more important ..as me getting the dog in to shape then her fattening him up and getting him out of shape was not doing the dog any good at all this was a son to son of a gun runner breeding. the dog was nice in the field ..but through that is where I learned about many tricks that show people will do to get the dogs to measure in ...and please don't tell me it doesn't go on

So back to a breeding you take a dog that is what you want and then what undesired traits that dogs has you breed a dog that is makes up the weakness in one with the desired in the other
that is what any good breeding program is about

there is No perfect dog they all have some type of fault you either learn how to brush it up, stack it up, or in, fluff up the furr in the toes to compensate for flat feet, here a trim, there chalk, make it whiter looking..condition the coat up so it feels soft not course like a field coat feels or thin out to make it look not so wavy or thick

judges like Chuck appreantly he shows what they like...if it isn't right then the judges need to be dealt with cuse What they put up for a champion is what people are going to look to as a winner and winners get bred to ....So if someone has a problem with that then maybe the judging needs to be re-evaluated...

I ahve a smaller bitch that has similiar breeding and Yes I am going to breed her to Chuck she has a DC for a daddy she had to smaller sister brother well in standard one brother is on the tall side...but i am betting in the right hands he could be Show titled all about who your willing to pay to get it done

what do I expect from the pups i am going to keep.....they work in the field for me and train to what I want...that is the key thing right there
the pups I sell I would hope they train up to what their owners want..birddog as the foundation anything after that I have said it before and will say it again is just mere icing and decoration to the cake it all goes to together but if the cake isn't good then the icing and decoration is all you will be looking at

Chuck is a prime piece of cake

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

Personally I don't think he has a setter head. The angle of the picture makes him look big I don't think he really is that outta standard size. I've look at lots of dogs and I know my b!tch and what I think needs to be put with her. I think Chuck has teh breeding and does the things I think that will put together and make excellent dogs. Why does anyone bred to who they do?? I'd bred to Roy if I wanted exceptional dogs but no of people that have had trouble getting there b!tches pregnant by Roy. Bucks Hit The Road JAck would be another prospect for excellent dogs but I want more I think and I think Chuck gives me more all with the Micordot stuff to boot. There are lots of good dogs out there I'll give you that Karen. I've looked at Moose seen some of his offspring and they just aren't what I'm after. It comes down to what a person ultimately wants and I think Chuck has that X-factor so to speak.

Robbie

[Karen]

I gotta say I get to watch Jack run weekly, and I get to watch 4 of his get run weekly, and they are AMAZING!! And Pete is holding them back because their handlers don't have the experience necessary to run them wide open, and I haven't seen him throw his low tail set either. Here's a pup by him being broke:

http://www.longviewkennels.com/images/padi.jpg

And at 2 1/2 she took 2nd to the old man in a 28 dog open stake. Another one took 3rd the day before in an amateur stake with over 30 starters. Helmut Shoen judged the open stake, and he likes tons of run, so you know these dogs can move.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Your facts are dead wrong Karen, but that's just fine. Of the ones that show on the AKC site, I have called on many of them, to be told, "oh no our trial is brit only". But, I'm done. I see maybe 100 trial results in the field, of those I have seen maybe 1% that are all breed. But, again, heck with facts. Have a good weekend.

[kninebirddog]

There are many people who like terry and have been watching his breeding closely
Lets see he breeds strong on Walker stuff...gees i thought walker was one of the brittany guru's

martha Greenlee uses much of the same breedings

maurice lindlet also has some hands on with Terrys breedings

Ben lorenson handles terrys stuff via other people I hear rumors there is another one of terrys breedings that should be up and coming

so i think terry has made a mark...but you have to seek other areas terry and his breedings are far beyond a back yard sensation

and just because someone likes something other then one point of veiw thinks is the greatest...that is called freedom of choice
there are plenty of good dogs chuck has done some awesome things since being whelped Jan 2 2004...An American field CH and an AKC FC also Placed 1st in the 2008 Us Open over Taryn who is R/U

So what is wrong with Chuck ???...Karen have you ever seen him run to see why judges are placing him and why you think Rob should avoid breeding to him and breed to dog to ones that haven't excited him...what is wrong with chucks pedigree tight Microdot with a strong HomoZY breeding of microdot and bean blaze...we put the homo zy also with my female which also had microdot and beans blaze up there

is there something wrong with microdot and Bean Blaze and Apache XXVI and Scipios that you feel should be avoided

is it because someone said he is 2 inches over standard?...I have seen dogs the are with in standard look bigger then dogs that are just out of standard all because of how they carry themselves until there is a wicket on the dog...it is all just hearsay about if he is and by how much.

Chuck is not a huge dog he is good size yes.....i have had him in my lap soaking up attention..i haven't had the pleasure of seeing him run..but I get to hear and see when he places. Fun to Call terry to congratulate him...He is a true gentleman and a gracious winner

[ezzy333]

Blake,

You stating the facts Karen presented are false is not quite adequate. If we are to believe you lets see the list you get from the clubs. You calling a couple of friends just doesnt seem quite as official as a list that includes not only the clubs but the classes they offer.

Ezzy

[Karen]

Your facts are dead wrong Karen, but that's just fine. Of the ones that show on the AKC site, I have called on many of them, to be told, "oh no our trial is brit only". But, I'm done. I see maybe 100 trial results in the field, of those I have seen maybe 1% that are all breed. But, again, heck with facts. Have a good weekend.

So if my facts are wrong, please tell me why the AKC is reporting all breed entries at all the trials I listed above, and more? Are they making it up? See below just a few in your general vicinity. Heck, Skyline Brittany Club had more GSP's than Brittanys at their trial!

Central New Mexico Brittany Club
Saturday, January 26, 2008 - Sunday, January 27, 2008

Amateur Walking Derby (8 Starters) (1 Pntr-GS, 7 Brit)
Amateur Gun Dog (14 Starters) (1 Weim, 2 Pntr-GS, 11 Brit)


Texas Coastal Brittany Club
Friday, February 1, 2008 - Sunday, February 3, 2008

Open Derby (8 Starters) (2 Set-Eng, 6 Brit)
Amateur Gun Dog (13 Starters) (6 Brit, 7 Set-Eng)
Open Gun Dog (13 Starters) (1 Pntr-GS, 4 Set-Eng, 8 Brit)


Bluebonnet Brittany Club (f/k/a Waco Bluebonnet)
Saturday, February 23, 2008 - Tuesday, February 26, 2008

Open Puppy Non-Ret (8 Starters) (1 Pntr-GS, 2 Pointer, 5 Brit)
Open Derby Non-Ret (17 Starters) (2 Set-Eng, 3 Pntr-GS, 12 Brit)
Amateur Gun Dog Non-Ret (14 Starters) (1 Vizs, 3 Set-Gord, 4 Brit, 6 Pntr-GS)
Open Gun Dog Non-Ret (26 Starters) (1 Pointer, 1 Set-Irsh, 2 Set-Gord, 3 Set-Eng, 6 Pntr-GS, 13 Brit)


West Texas Brittany Club
Thursday, February 28, 2008 - Sunday, March 2, 2008

Open Gun Dog (33 Starters) (1 Set-Irsh, 2 Vizs, 4 Pntr-GS, 5 Set-Eng, 21 Brit)


Skyline Brittany Club, Inc.
Friday, March 14, 2008 - Sunday, March 16, 2008

Open Puppy (10 Starters) (3 Pntr-GS, 3 Pointer, 4 Brit)
Open Derby (17 Starters) (2 Pntr-GW, 2 Pointer, 3 Brit, 10 Pntr-GS)
Amateur Gun Dog (15 Starters) (4 Pointer, 5 Pntr-GS, 6 Brit)
Open Gun Dog (19 Starters) (1 Set-Gord, 2 Pointer, 7 Brit, 9 Pntr-GS)
Open All-Age (14 Starters) (2 Pointer, 2 Set-Eng, 5 Pntr-GS, 5 Pntr-GW)
Open Limited Gun Dog (15 Starters) (2 Set-Eng, 3 Pointer, 4 Pntr-GW, 6 Pntr-GS)


Central New Mexico Brittany Club
Saturday, April 19, 2008 - Sunday, April 20, 2008

Amateur Walking Puppy (4 Starters) (2 Brit, 2 Pntr-GS)
Open Puppy (6 Starters) (6 Pntr-GS)
Amateur Walking Derby (8 Starters) (2 Pntr-GS, 2 Set-Eng, 4 Brit)
Open Derby (8 Starters) (3 Brit, 5 Pntr-GS)
Amateur Gun Dog (15 Starters) (2 Vizs, 3 Pntr-GS, 10 Brit)
Open Gun Dog (18 Starters) (7 Pntr-GS, 11 Brit)

[NE Vizsla]

8 pages of this Rob he can run but can he handle a Nebraska Ringneck and run at the same time ?

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

This is pathetic, in his original post Rob didn't even mention dual dogs. The poor guy just asked if anyone has seen the dog run and if anyone thought it looked good on paper. It seems funny to me that this has turned into just the type of thread that Ezzy would end up locking once it turned south, but since you seem to have a personal interest in it, i guess the rules just go out the window.

If you don't like the dog then don't buy a pup or breed to him. It's that simple. Stop to think how childish this looks to the casual reader who isn't a member of this forum. I know all of you people are better than this. Let's all act like adults and quit bickering. If that's not possible, then this should be locked, because it's completely off track and there have been 2 or 3 warnings to bring it back. But that doesn't seem possible because it's turned personal. I always thought we were supposed to be talking about dogs and not attacking each other. JMO

Doug

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

Doug

Thank you I've just kinda been sitting back trying to read the few posts about the actual topic. I don't get caught up in all this extra stuff taht goes on here most times. I'm excited about the breeding was just hoping others were also.

Robbie

[huntindog]

A small sample does not show the facts by any means. Pointing out a small percentage of clubs who DO have some or even all open stakes still does not account for the many others who close all of their stakes to other breeds. Point remains, 90% of brit trials are closed, where 90% plus of GSP stakes are open. We need placements for nationals just like the brits, but we allow all breeds to enter most of our trials. Heaven forbid the facts getting in the way.

Well I gotta jump in and tell ALL the facts. A GSP with a field championship is qualified for the GSP nationals for life.
A Brittany must qualify EVERY year. And it can only qualify at a Brit trial.
A GSP can obtain any and possibly all of it's championship points at Brittany trials (Yes there are some retrieving ones)
A Brittany MUST win a 3 point or better major at a Brittany trial. Winning the major at any other breeds trial won't count.


Most all of the Brittany trials I run in out west are open to all breeds, as there simply aren't enough Brits to make a major.
So you see, we have to beat all breeds at our trials. And since a certain percentage of the wins invariably will go to the other breeds our opportunities are fewer. Take for example a Shorthair that can run all of the GSP trials AND all of the Brittany trials to get their points.

And we have some VERY good GSPs here. One of our good friends and training partners has a GSP that has taken a 3rd and a 2nd at the GSP Gundog Nationals. He and his wife are often some of our top competition.

So I can see valid points for closed trials. In my opinion in a perfect world, all breeds would have closed trials. I feel that open trials promotes "sameness" .
As everyone breeds for the same attributes, the individual breed differences tend to become secondary to having what it takes to win!

I don't buy into the argument that competing against all breeds will improve our breed. That argument depends on believing that the other breeds are superior. That begs the question. In whose eyes? If it is a GSP person, does he think that Brittany people should breed to make a Brit more like a GSP? etc.
And yes I like the variety of the different breeds, each with their own strong points.

What a boring sport this would be if some time in the future you had to see the pedigree of a dog to know what it is.

I never let facts get in the way.

[highcotton]

Robbie,

If you excited about the breeding then go for it. You know what you like better than anyone else.

Charles

[Birddog 307]

Rob this is getting great reading all your responses. I did not know there were so many britt folks out their. One day we will get together and see what the differences are in our britts. Because you have a few different lines than I do and I have some different than you. Since we both have some of the better lines around. Like I said there are lots of good britts out there. I read the American Brittany and am amazed at all the great dogs. I do not know about your britts but I can say after my dogs second season their is not fifty cents worth of differance in any of them. They all run about the same and they all point about the same. If you feel it is good then breed them. I have never been to a britt field trial so I have no clue what it takes to win. I would like to know how they train. If all they try to do is to teach a dog to run wide open and hunt the typical places you would plant birds. Maybe if you are going to a trial close to my area let me know and I could come watch. Living in Wyoming does have some disadvantages for seeing what goes on in the rest of the world.
Allen

[Neil Mace]

The facts have been given for why Britt trials tend to be closed to other breeds, and it seems somewhat questionable to state the GSP's prove they are better because of their open trials, when they make up 90+% of the entries, for the most part, they are beating other GSP's, which is impressive enough for me.

I will comment on the Dual Brittany. This past week, we had two All-Age Brittanys finish their DC. Whiz, the current R/U All-Age NC, and Chug, an amateur trained and handled A-A. The current Tri-Tronics Dog of the Year is a Dual. My Ace, was the Central Futurity Dual Dog. There are 500+ Dual Champion Brittanys! Not all were slugs that entered enough trials/shows to finish.

Oh, about All-Age pointers and Britts, Whiz, took second at the Mid-South Amatuer All-Age last Dec, beating a number of pointer Champions ran by Joe Don House, Burke Hendrix, Jake Waddel, etc. He was beaten by Ch. Memphis May. My Azul took 3rd in the Shooting Dog, following up his placement in the Memphis Amateur. Azul, a littermate to a Dual NFC, placed nearly half the time in a pointer dominated region and came close at the Region 6 Shooting Dog Sh.

A true Dual Britt does have to give up a good bit in size, but there have been enough smaller great GSP's, pointers, and setters, I don't think it is that big of disadvantage.

There are great dogs of every breed,

Neil

[Flush]

Oh, about All-Age pointers and Britts, Whiz, took second at the Mid-South Amatuer All-Age last Dec, beating a number of pointer Champions ran by Joe Don House, Burke Hendrix, Jake Waddel, etc. He was beaten by Ch. Memphis May. My Azul took 3rd in the Shooting Dog, following up his placement in the Memphis Amateur. Azul, a littermate to a Dual NFC, placed nearly half the time in a pointer dominated region and came close at the Region 6 Shooting Dog Sh.
Neil

Congrats to Whiz and his owner and handler, a placement in all-age against pointers is something to be proud of for sure.
Even the setters fans revel in those.
Congrats also to you Mr. Mace, alhough I have to ask: in the shooting dog at the mid-south I see you as handling the second place Setter, Longhaired country boy, this past year but I don't see a Britt in the placements?

Regardless, congrats. I agree there are great dogs in all breeds.

[ezzy333]

Neil,

Good post. I too think size is terribly overated. In the Brits everyone has to have a bigger dog and in the setters and GSP's everyone has to have a smaller dog. Can't count the times I have heard about the fluffy little show Brits and the lumbering clumsy oversized GSP's and setters that they show. Good field dogs is more appitude and attitude than it is size. Seems most of us still see the grass greener on the other side of the fence.

To all the great Brits and GSP's and the other breeds that have proven that they can compete and in show ring and the field. Gives us all something more to do with our dogs.

Ezzy

[Kiki's Mom]

This thread has provided me with an hour of the most entertaining reading I have done in a great while. I have been away on vacation and am getting ready to head out for two+ weeks on the show circuit, so I'm catching up on things.
Interesting.

Robbie, Chuck has an impressive career record so far. Terry Maxwell is an absolute gentleman, an excellent handler and has CONSISTENTLY been producing some very fine All Age Brittanys lately If this is the example what you are looking to achieve in your own breeding program, then go for it!!!!!

There is a litter coming up in Calif
the sire is "Chuck"x FC/AFC Lane's end Jess N Time - a true blue, ridge running, bird finding high style little All Age Brittany. Jess has qualified and run in the ABC National All Age Championship 2x. She is also an excellent example of the Brittany breed conformationally. Her owner prefers the field and will never show her.

[kninebirddog]

Yep kiKi...Jess is an absolute sweet heart ...We brought her back over from cal for Cary and met up with Jan for jess' final trip to chuck we picked her up when we went to visit friends at the Mission circuit held in Pomona

If all goes right should be about 60 some days as she was just near the prime time a couple days ago when i was talking to Terry

as for chucks record this is Just the hour Championships and classic winds I could find on the AKC based brittany site http://clubs.akc.org/brit/
FC Amer CH Maxwell’s Blew By You II
2008 CHAMPIONSHIP ,CLASSIC ,HOUR STAKES TRIALS
1ST PLACE US OPEN
3RD PLACE TEXAS OPEN BRITTANY CHAMPION SHIP
2ND PLACE GREATER PHOENIX LAAA

2007
1ST PLACE NEW MEXICO AA CLASSIC
1ST PLACE TEXAS OPEN CHAMPIONSHIP

A few other dogs that Terry's breedings produced Maxwells white Spirit Maxwells Gunsmoke Maxwells Charismatic
Maxwells'S White Spirit is on the front cover of the ABC Mag March 2008
So since 2004 Terrys Breedings have taken 23 1 hour Championship Classic trails placements..not to shabby for a quiet man

Here is some home pictures from the other post I started
Here is Chuck aka Maxwell's Blew By You II and Terry working hard preparing for the next round of trials



Yeah it is a small picture but here is terry showing chuck how to look out in the field


Here is that high head pose again think them pointer guys call it head crank


morning coffee getting ready for the day



hmm Looks all brittany to me...what do you think

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

Kiki,

we sure missed you several pages ago. Couldn't wait for your opinion on this subject though. I think it will be a great Microdot breeding and should produce high class hard charging dogs. Here is what a pedigree on it would look like.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1275

I wanna do it for me will proably keep two pups for myself. I want dogs that I can run hour stakes with and I sure think this match would do that for me. The Chicken classic for one is right in my back yard so to speak so I just as well have a dog or two that can compete in it. Being this close to the sandhills might even give me an advantage

Robbie

[Neil Mace]

Congrats also to you Mr. Mace, alhough I have to ask: in the shooting dog at the mid-south I see you as handling the second place Setter, Longhaired country boy, this past year but I don't see a Britt in the placements?

Regardless, congrats. I agree there are great dogs in all breeds.

Didn't mean to say Azul placed in the Mid-South, he didn't. But he did place in the Marshal County, and twice at Fisherville, including the Memphis Amateur. He had 5 placements in like 7 trials, and as I said is a littermate to a Dual NFC. But my real purpose was to celebrat Whiz, a true All-Age Dual Champion, placing in Shooting Dog is not nearly as hard as taking a piece of the All-Age, not in this country. Some of the pointers that have placed in the Memphis Amateur have sold for $40,000+.

Neil

[Greg Jennings]

Putting my moderator hat on:

I'm glad that this thread looks to be somewhat back on track. Robbie, I offer my heart-felt apologies that a well-intended post generated such a donnybrook.

The biggest problem that I have with what's gone on in the two threads is the lack of restraint that has gone into the posts of *a few* folks; folks that have demonstrated that they are capable of far better.

Facts can be established or debunked and different breeding philosophies discussed without the debate degenerating into an open hissy-fit. We just have to put our intellectual nose to the grindstone to make it happen.

Greg J.

[kninebirddog]

To the Board I will step up with an apologize for my defensive posts which got out of hand

I know the people and the dog and yes it got a bit personal...which I should know better

Rob...that Microdot breeding should prove to make great birddogs and should prove to be super trial dogs

I am looking forward to how they progress in the future..

Please keep us posted

[lvrgsp]

I can just feel the love....

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www. ... Tqoro-6pyQ


Enjoy,
Chip

[Greg Jennings]

Aw, come on, Chip. I worked my tail off to get this straightened out. I need GDF to leave me be till at least next Tuesday.

Greg J.

[Scott]

Rob,

While I am not an avid trialer. I only attend 2-3 a year. I live about 30 minutes from Terry and have watched him run dogs for the last 5-6 years. From what I have seen he takes great care of his dogs and horses. Terry is one who is easy to talk to and helps a guy out at the trials. I am not a close friend of Terry's but we know one another from the local trials. He is a nice guy.

IMHO, Chuck is a great dog and no doubt will produce great hunting and trialing dogs. However you may end up with some pups in the litter that are a bit larger than the standard. But, you know, the majority of buyers want hunting dogs. If you want a dual dog with great potential I am sure you will have several if not most out of the litter that will meet the standards and be hunting/trialing fools. Just my .02. I might get bashed for suggesting you breed to a dog that will potentially produce some dogs that will be larger than the standard BUT I have seen at least one litter of pups that came from dogs that were on the small side and produced 2 males that were out of standard. For me(I am not a breeder) it almost seems like a crap shoot sometimes.

I think you will get some great dogs out of that breeding.

[lvrgsp]

Hey face it Greg you were singing, I could hear it in Illinois....

Hee hee.

Chip

[Greg Jennings]

Chip, that was me crying and beating my head on my desk in 4/4 time.

Greg J.

[lvrgsp]

Yes Greg, BUT did ya feel the love man?.......ha ha ha ha

Chip

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

Scott,

Thank You I just hope everything works out where I can make it happen. I love your avatar picture of your Brittany its a gorgeous picture. Says so much without saying anything at all

Robbie

[Scott]

Thanks Rob,
That is the work of Ed Tilson. He did a great job steadying him up. Gotta love these dogs no matter what breed you have. I wish you the best with your breeding. Please keep us up to date with how it goes.

Take care,

Scott

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

I've got a dog leaving on the twelveth to spend the summer with Ed. I ended up with a dog that Jessica had bred its out of her Haley dog. He'll be going up to Montana to get finished broke out and learn some patterns. Do you run trials with your brittany?

Rob

[Scott]

Your going to be really be happy with Ed. He is a great guy that takes care of every dog like it was his own. I sent the dog in my avatar last year to Montana with him. The results were great! I was going to send him up there this year too but it looks like we are expanding our family so I had to back off.

That should be a great pup out of Haley. I am sure you will get a nice finished dog back.

I have all of his amatuer points and have run him at some of the local trials as has Ed. Unfortunately the finances haven't been there yet to send him on the circuit with Ed. I am saving for next year so I hope to have him out there on the circuit. We mainly do a lot of mearns quail hunting with the dogs here in Arizona.