coverdog bred?

[Gridiron and Grouse]

I was ready on an earlier post about small pointers, and a few other posts over the past month or so and have read about "coverdog bred pointers" and "coverdog bred setters". Are these just breeders that breed dogs specifically for hunting heavy cover? If so, how do you find such breeders? Any clarification would be great. Thanks!

[Grouse Dog Guy]

I see you live in NW Pa. take a ride down to Clearfield and visit with Dave Hughes, he will help you out and show you some of the best coverdogs in the country.

[Flush]

Coverdog bred, is referring to "Cover Dog" field trials. That doesn't mean these dogs are only bred for trial purposes, most of these breeders are hunters and sell puppies to hunters as much as for trialing. But to be clear, "Coverdog" refers to a type of trial, specificially those held on wild grouse and woodcock. Compared to horseback trials, Coverdogs tend to be smaller and snappier, although that is certainly not aways the case.

I used to live in NY and if I were to move back, I would absolutely look at coverdog bred dogs for my hunting, regardless if I had any intentions of trialing. Here is a good site that lists some well known and good Coverdog breeders, although there are certainly many more but that would get you started. Google searches will turn up lots more info too. You are in a good part of the country to watch some coverdog trials and visit some breeders. I wish they weren't so far from me.

http://www.coverdogs.com/

-Flush

P.S. I like your avatar. Is that a relative or you from a ways back, or a new photo that just looks old? My family is from N.C. PA and we have had setters for a long time and I have some old family photos like that, many of which contain the now long gone wild pheasant too.

[Gridiron and Grouse]

Thanks for your help! It sounds like that is what I am looking for. I'm just picking through stuff so when the time comes (next year) I can get the right dog for around here. The picture is of my grandfather. He grew up in South East Pa, coached basketball for years and years, but introduced me to dogs, guns, and bird hunting. One of my favorite pics.

[Yawallac]

IMO "Cover Dog bred" is a marketing ploy as far as Pointers are concerned ...and probably Setters as well. ANY Pointer from Walking Shooting Dog lines with style going and on point, great nose and biddable would make not only great Cover Dogs but also great grouse dogs.

I have been placing well bred Pointers that would be considered AF Shooting Dog lines in Cover Dog homes in an attempt to dispell the myth of the "Cover Dog bred" Pointer. So far the pups that I placed last year are doing great!! Just had two young pups run in the MI State Grouse Classic a couple of weeks ago. Neither took a placement but they were much younger than the winners. The judges said both were very close though. They weren't "red shirted" and they will catch up down the road. They have the tools to win and are performing beyond what the owners expected.

I grew up in NE PA hunting grouse and quickly realized that the Pointers that I see in the South have all the tools necessary for the grouse woods. I believe that you will see more and more "conventionally bred" Pointers moving forward. There is just too much great blood available to pass up. I am trying to place at least one exceptionally bred Pointer pup in a grouse home from every litter I breed. I will make DEALS to get them where I want them.

[Grouse Dog Guy]

IMO "Cover Dog bred" is a marketing ploy as far as Pointers are concerned ...and probably Setters as well. ANY Pointer from Walking Shooting Dog lines with style going and on point, great nose and biddable would make not only great Cover Dogs but also great grouse dogs.

I have been placing well bred Pointers that would be considered AF Shooting Dog lines in Cover Dog homes in an attempt to dispell the myth of the "Cover Dog bred" Pointer. So far the pups that I placed last year are doing great!! Just had two young pups run in the MI State Grouse Classic a couple of weeks ago. Neither took a placement but they were much younger than the winners. The judges said both were very close though. They weren't "red shirted" and they will catch up down the road. They have the tools to win and are performing beyond what the owners expected.

I grew up in NE PA hunting grouse and quickly realized that the Pointers that I see in the South have all the tools necessary for the grouse woods. I believe that you will see more and more "conventionally bred" Pointers moving forward. There is just too much great blood available to pass up. I am trying to place at least one exceptionally bred Pointer pup in a grouse home from every litter I breed. I will make DEALS to get them where I want them.

What's your deal?

[Yawallac]

What's your deal?

Since you copied my entire post, I'm not sure if you are asking "What's your deal ...you idiot!" ...or if you are asking, "What's your deal" in reference to my last sentence.

I can answer either question.

[Grouse Dog Guy]

Start with the easy one, ( "I will make DEALS to get them where I want them.")

[Gridiron and Grouse]

Thanks guys! Yawallac, I will definitely keep pointers (and you) in mind when I can FINALLY get my pup. Thanks again.

[GSP9]

Are there any GSP's that are run in the coverdog trials? I know allot of those guys think if it doesn't have a tail it isn't a dog. Just curious if anyone out there is trying to get the GSP's out on that circuit. Mine only hunts Grouse and Woodcock and does a fine job.

[mudhunter]

Go to the Trials and all you will see is Muddy, long tailed, and mostly long haired, dogs. Its a beautiful thing!

[whitedogone]

http://www.midnightkennel.com/

[GSP9]

Whitedogone, I know of nidnight kennel. Heard good thins about them and if I was going to get a Setter or EP I'd probably take a look. They aren't too far from me actually. I don't really understand what your point was in just copying the link to the post?

I was just curious why there are no GSP's ran in the coverdog trials.

[Yawallac]

GSP9,

Let me qualify my post by saying, WHETHER RIGHT OR WRONG, GSPs don't have tails that can be judged. Sounds stupid, but the reality is that the dogs tail, while "going", is as important as many other actual useful traits. Dogs are judged on style and a Pointer or Setter with a tail that is horizontal or even just above horizontal will not beat a dog with a high cracking tail "going". That doesn't leave much for a GSP to be judged on in that regard.

That wouldn't stop me from running a fine GSP or other continental because they still can win. In the NBHA trials that I run, the same is true. However, continentals have won in our venue. At least they have wins in weekend trials. I doubt they will win any NBHA Championships in the forseeable future, but they can win in a weekend trial with clean birdwork. Cherrystone has taken placements here in SC with her Weims.

..and there are some Brits that have done well in Cover Dog trials, so tail isn't everything ...but it is something.

[Bill Holtan]

I have seen a few shorthairs over the years run in grouse trials but not very many. There were a few in MN this year I saw in the Amatuer Shooting Dog Stake, they did not place but I heard that they were nice dogs. I wish we would see more continentals give it a go in the woods as well as walking quail trials. A couple years ago I scouted for a guy who ran a shortahair at a US Complete Championship and I promise you he could compete at any trial I attend walking or horseback, he was classy moving, hard driving and gorgeus on his game, in this trial he was named runner up champion. I would encourage anyone with a shorthair and thinks grouse trials sound fun to give it a go.

Bill

[GSP9]

Yawallac-
So all I need is a tail extension and shaggy wig for my dog and I'm all set? Kidding...I understand and I know allot of good people and great dogs that run these type of trials. You answered my question well. Thanks

[whitedogone]

I don't really understand what your point was in just copying the link to the post?

You asked in your first post "If so, how do you find such breeders"

I just gave you a good source close to home. WDO

[Gridiron and Grouse]

That was me that wrote the original post. It's nice to know about (semi) local or area trainers. Thanks. I'm starting to think that picking a dog/breed is going to be the hardest part of the process. Thanks for all the info so far.

[Grouse Dog Guy]

There is a trial at DuBois Beaver Meadow Field Trial Association, Luthersburg, PA, May 23, 24 and 25 this is a quail trial but most of the dogs and handlers also run in grouse trials and our grouse hunters. This is a good place to see some nice grouse dogs and meet some nice people that know about grouse dogs, if you our interested I can give you directions to the grounds.

[Yawallac]

Grouse Dog Guy

PM Sent

[Wagonmaster]

I used to run in and judge cover dog trials years ago, have seen lots of cover dogs, and although I did not have GSP's then, that is what I have now. Here is my take. First, as to the "cover dog bred" label, I have seen many pointers and setters that do well in the woods, and they come in all sizes and types. To win a cover dog trial, the dog has to have a find on a wild bird. These are not common, particularly in a year when the grouse cycle is down. So while it takes a nice race to win a cover dog trial, the a number one component is a great nose coupled with great manners. Generally, these are things that a dog is gifted with but also that are developed through running the dog on wild birds, in the grouse woods, alot. I have seen excellent shooting dogs from regular shooting dog stock that looked beautiful running in the woods, but never made a find or if they did, just did not know what to do with a grouse. If I really wanted to be competitive in cover dog trials, I would go to Hughes or to Jim Tande to look for stock that is not just good shooting dog stock, but has a great nose to go with. Then I would run the snot out of the dog in the woods.

As for GSP's, the very best grouse dog I have ever had was a GSP. I had a friend years ago that owned won the National Amateur Field Championship(GSPCA) with a dog, and took third a year later, and that dog was terrific in the grouse woods. Cover dogs are not seen most of the time, so nobody is judging any cracking tails as the dog moves. They are judging the sound of the bell, is the dog moving merrily, and is it moving forward. But again, remember, the dog must have a find on wild birds to place. So I have seen lots of fast dogs with cracking tails that don't know what a grouse is, they look good running but never make a find and thus do not place. A GSP could sure do it. In fact, this goes back many years, but one of our local grouse trialers had an old female GWP that would take a second or third now and then, simply because she knew how to find birds. She was hunted on nothing but grouse and woodcock, every weekend from the beginning of the season to the end, every year of her life. Mostly though, GSP people just don't choose to run in the grouse woods. We have a different trial system, there are no grouse trials in it, and it would require us to take the dog out of our trial circuit in order to run it in a single grouse trial, so it is not a common thing. But although that is what I do now with my dogs, I think that grouse trials are the best test of a wild game bird dog that there is, bar none. I love the prairie trials on chickens also, but the young of the year chickens don't present anywhere near the challenge to a bird dog that a ruffed grouse does.

[Grouse Dog Guy]

Wagonmaster, I think your pretty close with what you say. I have hunted grouse all my life over just about every flushing and pointing breed you can name. I started with setters that were bred from dogs that won cover trials, I tried for years to find a GSP that could find and handle grouse like a setter but just never was able to get a GSP to flow through the woods without getting into the head down hunting mode that they were bred to do. I had some very nice GSP dogs that were great pheasant dogs and pretty good woodcock dogs but like I said before they just didn't do it on grouse like a setter or pointer, guess if I hadn't seen what setters and pointers can do, I would have been very happy with a GSP.

[Yawallac]

Based upon Wagonmasters description, IMO the perfect Pointer breeding for the woods would be a Fiddler x Guard Rail cross. Fiddler for the consistently powerful noses and Guard Rail for the intelligence and biddability.

That's the ticket!!

[Gridiron and Grouse]

Yallawac

I'm glad you've got it figured out, because I still have no idea what to get. When I'm ready though you're definitely somebody I'm going to get in contact with.

[whitedogone]

After looking at a picture of Gramps with that fine looking setter. How could you chose any other breed?

[Grouse Dog Guy]

After looking at a picture of Gramps with that fine looking setter. How could you chose any other breed?

They have been known to do a pretty good job on old mister ruff in the woods of Pa.

[Yawallac]

After looking at a picture of Gramps with that fine looking setter. How could you chose any other breed?

I agree. I believe that the breed you choose is somehow in your blood. Looks like Setters might be in yours. Go with your heart...

[Neil Mace]

I have always been suprised that there aren't more Britts running in the woods, we have one now and then that wins. A little female that is a 1/2 sister to of mine has won some of the bigger ones recently. And most of my dogs have always made the transition fairly easily. True I tend not to go on severe down cycles, but the ones that do well on quail and woodcock in the Mid-South seem to be able to get the hang of it. When I lived in PA in the late 70's I hunted grouse a good bit more and was able to do fairly well with my horseback dogs in their trials.

Now most of the old judges thought all grouse dogs ought to have long hair and a flowing tail, but if there was ever a group that judged the correct end of the dog (read nose), it was those guys. They flat didn't care what the dog looked like, if they thought it the best at presenting grouse to the gun, it got the win. When you ask a man to walk 20 to 30 hours in the woods to judge, you get a different sort of fella - he is dedicated and most likely a hunter.

I miss grouse trials.

Neil

[Gridiron and Grouse]

Yallawac and Whitedoggone

Therein lies the problem haha. My grandpa started with setters. Then you might be interested in this Yallawac he switched to english pointers from South Carolina for a LONG time. My great Uncle had a plantation in Charleston, "Buena Vista", where he raised english pointers. So after 4 pointers, he's switched to springer spaniels and a Vizsla.

Anyways, he's just a lover of dogs and has had all kinds of breeds and has always been a pheasant guy. So I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to start out with. Again guys, thanks for the input.