Pointing Labs - Why?

[SD Pheasant Slayer]

Now, first of all, I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to insult anyone or their dog. I love hunting over a good lab and think they are probably one of, if not THE, most personable breed of gundogs around. However, I've always been a little perplexed/peturbed at the idea of "pointing labs." I have a family friend that breeds some of these pointing labs and now a good friend of mine is looking into purchasing one. I haven't said a word to my friend (mainly because I don't want to harm the business interests of the other friend), but I just think the whole pointing lab idea is kind of a foolish one. It seems to me that if you wanted a dog that points you'd buy a pointer. Labs are great dogs that do a specific job and do it well, but that job isn't and never has been to find and then point upland birds. I'd go broke trying to sell flushing shorthairs, but pointing labs are desirable? Can someone explain this to me? It just seems to me that you buy a lab to hunt close and bust birds in gun range, and you buy a pointer to run big and point birds. Again, I may just be completely ignorant, and certainly don't want to step on anyone's toes, but WHY? Any and all views are welcome - especially from the owners of "pointing labs."

[EWSIV]

Why not?

[nitrex]

Why not?

IMO they do not have the scenting abilities of the pointing breeds. They do not do as well in the heat, nor cover the ground as well. The pointing lab was really developed after some labs began to hesitate on the flush and some genius had the idea to make money out of this flaw in the breed and call it a pointing lab. I give those first breeders credit for being great marketers, but IMO they are not helping the hunter put more birds in the bag. Maybe in a few hundred years they will be able to develop those labs into pointing machines. I think they may need to add a little EP in the gene pool to help them out!?!?

Nitrex

[rkelly]

I agree, I don't see much purpose in getting a lab to point. What is next, Pointing Chessies!

[ezzy333]

Though I don't like the lack of intensity, so I would have little interest in getting one but I sure would be looking if I could only keep one dog and loved to hunt waterfowl and upland. Pointing labs are not a product of poorly bred flushers anymore than any other pointing breed. They just happen to be in the early stages of their development while our other breeds have been selectively bred for many many years.


Ezzy

[Trekmoor]

I have seen pointing labs here in U.K. it is not a U.S. phenomonon. The English Pointer was one of the breeds crossed into the early "labrador" in this country. The gene to point is present in the lab to a greater or lesser extent. I myself, prefer a dog with a bit more pointing style than any lab but one I have ever seen on point.

That particular specimen was a bitch owned by a friend . She even looked "pointery" -- very slightly dished muzzle and a body and legs that were more pointery than lab. ----- Oh boy ! She could run and hunt and point ----- and retrieve ! She won a Novice trial in this country. Her sire was a field trial champion. He was later exported to Canada - might have been America. That was about 30 years ago --- so maybe you've got us to blame for your pointing labs.

Bill T.

[Rick Hall]

I agree, I don't see much purpose in getting a lab to point. What is next, Pointing Chessies!

Wouldn't be difficult with some of 'em, just add "whoa". In fact, my first Chesapeake was naturally quite staunch until I broke him of it, and his half-brother remained staunch all his life without the sort of training most pointing dogs require to stay such.

I'd rather my retrievers didn't point for a number of reasons, and have also kept pointing dogs most of my life, but I'm danged if I can see why so many folks get their panties bunched over pointing Labs. Lord knows there are folks enjoying the heck out of representatives of most "pointing" breeds that have less range, stamina and style on point than a good pointing Lab. Why not live and let live?

[Terry]

I would like to get one. I don't have problems with heat where I hunt and duck hunt as well...

[PowerPoint]

You should see my pointing dachshund!Shot over 200 wild texas Quail last season over him.

[ezzy333]

You would have to shoot over him. Sure couldn't shoot under him.

Ezzy

[zzweims]

The gene to point is present in the lab to a greater or lesser extent.

The gene to point is present in ALL BREEDS to a greater or lesser extent. My first 'pointer' was a JRT mix. I've seen shepherds and collies 'point.' A few years ago, I got stuck with a Yorkie for a few months (friend/owner sick). She was dead broke--pointing, backing and retrieving by the time I gave her back. My cats point. My horses point. Heck, they even honor.

I see nothing wrong with a pointing lab, provided it is just as exeptional at retrieving as it's 'non-pointing' cousins. Otherwise, it is just a gimmick.

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

[PrairieGoat]

You would have to shoot over him. Sure couldn't shoot under him.

Ezzy

Almost had to sue you over a broken rib and spilled beer!!!

[tfbirddog2]

I have a pointing lab and wiemer cross.I would own another agian.ZZ is right on it, some breeds are just stronger to do it.

As afr as chessies go there is not enough 2x4s to use for training one of those stubburn mules.
Most of the pointing labs I have hunted with or watched have been flushers on pheasents and not to bad on quail.
But Idont see anything wrong with them.If trained they can be very very good, I guide at a preserve with mine.

[markj]

Iused to hunt pigs, and deer with a pit bull dog, he would lead me right up to a deer in the woods, then stop like a solidpoint from a shorthair. Got me as close as 20 yards several times, he was from hunting lines in SC. Guy name of Cummings, Grady Cummings I think, was over 25 years ago. Sure do miss that dog, he would fetch a pheas too but wouldnt hunt for em I had a shorthair for that but aftet the shot he would run up and "steal" it from the shorthair. I freaked out a few guys with that dog... won a few bets too

[Rick Hall]

As afr as chessies go there is not enough 2x4s to use for training one of those stubburn mules.

You may be right about that, but it's easy with a light hand and just lick of sense.

[mtlee]

To me it just seems like an upland/waterfowl hunter (maybe 60% upland 40% waterfowl) would be better off to get one of the versatile pointing breeds. A wirehaired variety if cold water is a concern. It just seems like they would be making less of a compromise. I would think the average versatile would be much better at retrieving ducks than average PL is in the upland scene. BUT, I've never hunted with a pointing lab....this is just my uneducated conclusion and personal opinion

[ezzy333]

The lab is one of the most popular upland dogs in pheasant country. And the reason is people like them and that is the way it should be. I'm not going to second guess anyone about the dog they like and what does a good job for them.

Ezzy

[PowerPoint]

To each his own,as they say.I carried my lab on the road guiding with me for ten yrs,also on those trips were my two pointers,and English Setter.I would hunt ducks,and Geese in the morning with my duck dog,let her have the afternoon off,and take my bird dogs for the upland stuff.Loved um both-

[h20fwlkillr]

If God wanted labs to point, he would have given them a finger.

I've had a few pointing labs in for training. They were from supposed "good" lines. IMO they wouldn't be able to compete w/ a mediocre GSP,EP or setter on their best day.

[sjohnny]

I don't understand why anyone has to have a reason for their choice of dog. I picked the V because I like the way they look. I spend a lot more time looking at him than hunting with him. He spends more time on the couch or the bed than he does in the field. In my house the dogs are pets/family first and foremost so we're not worried about winning titles or anything (not that I would turn down a dog that could as long as it was a nice family dog as well). I have no problem with a pointing lab (except that I'm just not partial to labs at all) and if labs are what floats someone's boat and they want one that points who cares? My min pin points - he's not steady and ends up chasing but he's got a very pretty point when he first sees a cat or a bird or whatever.

John

[Grange]

The lab is one of the most popular upland dogs in pheasant country. And the reason is people like them and that is the way it should be. I'm not going to second guess anyone about the dog they like and what does a good job for them.

Ezzy

I think the fact that they are darn good on pheasant has something to do with it as well.

I considered a PL before I got my dog, but ultimately wet with a non-pointing lab breeding from a co-worker because of the feedback I got about his dog's puppies.

The reasons I considered a PL were:

1. I wanted the best retrieving dog I could find, but I am also a big fan of upland hunting.
2. I wanted a dog that would do well in a neigborhood with a lot of little kids.
3. I didn't have a big yard and didn't want a dog that needed to be exercised a lot.
4. I wanted a dog that loved water. Not likes water, but loves water.
5. I grew up with retrievers so for my first dog (on my own) I didn't want to stray too far from what is familiar (i.e. my training abilty).
6. I always wanted a black lab.

Now my lab is starting "point" on her own. By the end of this past season she "pointed" and was steady on a couple grouse from about 20 feet and several hen pheasants until they flushed on their own. I don't encourage or train for it, but then I also don't discourage it either. I'm anxious to see what she'll do this season.

[oakcreek]

To be honest I have labs that I don't feel leave anything to be desired in the upland field, and hunt better then some of the self owned hunting shorthairs in this area which I have seen. It comes down to breeding and training. Labs make very good upland dogs, they are even tempered, easy to train, are decently natural around birds ( more so then some of the more exotic pointing breeds I have trained).

I own both PL's and English pointers. Both serve a great purpose. When the cover is thick I find that labs change their race to what the cover allows much easier then some pointers. Therefore I run pointers in open country with labs behind them, then run just labs in thick cover or when I am with a bunch of hunters because most people don't understand why my pointers are out 200 yds, and still get a little touchy when my labs get out beyond 75 yards.

[wems2371]

I'm partial to gsp's, and I'm definitely all in for versatile multitasking dog. If anyone's got a gsp bloodline that can cook, clean, or drive I'll send a deposit ASAP for first pick female. To each their own...................and why not? Denise

[gspjeb]

have a buddy that has a PL. Dog is fun to hunt with. To be honest, I live in quail country and don't like a dog that only gets out about 35 yards or so and for me personally I have not been impressed with their intensity. I have hunted behind 5 of them that I can recall. Great personalities for all....don't seem as deep in the nose as I am used to but that is subjective. Overall, if someone wants to hunt with a PL more power to them. I just can't cover the land required around here with a close dog. Another thing for me is that wild roosters are IMO way more susceptible to a flusher than a pointer...not sure why you would want a PL in pheasant country but to each his/her own.

[tfbirddog2]

I wanted a GSP, but my wife came home picked me up and took me to pick out a PL for $20.Little would I know that has she is becoming older and the way I like to hunt I have thought of buying another or a wiemador cross again.PLs in pheasant country work very very well, why wouldnt they?Being a pointing dog guy the only way I would want to have a flushing lab is to walk by me a send it into flush,IMO I like knowing where that bird might be verses birds exploding left and right, I like a little more controll when hunting.

[Loke]

As afr as chessies go there is not enough 2x4s to use for training one of those stubburn mules.

You may be right about that, but it's easy with a light hand and just lick of sense.

I've read a lot of books, and watched a lot of videos, but I've never seen a training technique that required a trip to Home Depot. A check cord, a whistle, and some bumpers is all that I've ever needed. :roll:

Shasta and her favorite lumber

[tfbirddog2]

The four chessies I have been around all had good trainers and a e-collar wasnt enough.I have never seen such a hard headed dog to train next to a blueheeler wanting to do what it wants.

[Rick Hall]

The four chessies I have been around all had good trainers and a e-collar wasnt enough.

Reads like one of them oxymoronic do-fobbers. (To put the politest possible face on it.)

[Willie Hunter]

Labs don't point.

[tfbirddog2]

Just slightly Rick just slighty.

[gspjeb]

maybe it is just me but my experience with Chessies is that they have been a little soft when it came to training and you couldnt pressure them like a lab. I /we had to take extra time with them but in the end it was well worth it. IMO not much better for duck/goose hunting than a well trained chessie.

[Don]

I wasn't even going to look at this thread. Thing that really gets me is that so many people that do own them think they'll go with any pointing dog, in fact better them. Breed blindness runs rampant in Labs.

Ezzy said something on his first post in this thread that I would like to correct. He claimed that labs are flushers. wrong, they are retrievers. They are the king of retrievers.

I have looked at many of these so called pointing lab web sites and I have never seen the first one that will guarantee one of their pups to point. I know of one guy in one of the lake states that claims he'll guarantee it. He made that claim after one of those pointing labs are the best pointer thread's.

I also heard from a guy that claims to have gone to a pointing dog fun trial and he claims they ask him not to come back because his dog was to good a pointer and they couldn't beat him. Hog wash! That's like claiming your Pointer or Setter is gonna kick some butt at a retriever trial. And in the end, many of these guys really get indignant about it.

I for one could care less if you hunt with a pointing lab, GSP, JRT or whatever. But it really bothers me when people are so willing to make the claims pointing lab people make but won't back it up with a guarantee it will point! And for all these people's claims, I'd love to see them compete in a field trial run to pointing dog standards and judged by pointing dog judges. They would fall on their face. I find it a disservice to all the people that went out and made the lab the retriever that it is to call it anything other than a lab. You never hear the claim, "I raise flushing labs" do you. I don't. What is true is that they can be used as flushing dogs but they are retrievers. They are retrievers without equal.

[Willie Hunter]

I wasn't even going to look at this thread. Thing that really gets me is that so many people that do own them think they'll go with any pointing dog, in fact better them. Breed blindness runs rampant in Labs.

Ezzy said something on his first post in this thread that I would like to correct. He claimed that labs are flushers. wrong, they are retrievers. They are the king of retrievers.

I have looked at many of these so called pointing lab web sites and I have never seen the first one that will guarantee one of their pups to point. I know of one guy in one of the lake states that claims he'll guarantee it. He made that claim after one of those pointing labs are the best pointer thread's.

I also heard from a guy that claims to have gone to a pointing dog fun trial and he claims they ask him not to come back because his dog was to good a pointer and they couldn't beat him. Hog wash! That's like claiming your Pointer or Setter is gonna kick some butt at a retriever trial. And in the end, many of these guys really get indignant about it.

I for one could care less if you hunt with a pointing lab, GSP, JRT or whatever. But it really bothers me when people are so willing to make the claims pointing lab people make but won't back it up with a guarantee it will point! And for all these people's claims, I'd love to see them compete in a field trial run to pointing dog standards and judged by pointing dog judges. They would fall on their face. I find it a disservice to all the people that went out and made the lab the retriever that it is to call it anything other than a lab. You never hear the claim, "I raise flushing labs" do you. I don't. What is true is that they can be used as flushing dogs but they are retrievers. They are retrievers without equal.

Whoa, tells us how you really feel.

[ezzy333]

Don,

I know what you are trying to say but when I called them flushers that's just exactly how they are used in upland hunting. Identical to a Springer or any other flusher. Along with their flushing they are great retrievers or at least I always thought they werewtill I found out people are FF them. Now I have no idea how good of natural retrievers they really are. I know they were bred as retrievers and they still seem to be as good as it gets in the water along with the Chessie. But in the upland fields they are natural flushers but we do see quite a few of the labs that are stopping at least rather than flushing and they are calling it a point. The good thing is I can see more intensity in some dogs now than I ever saw a few years ago so I think they are getting prettier if not better.

Ezzy

[Don]

Dang Willie, I hope I wasn't to blunt. I can be that way. Thing that really irks me is a guy getting his first dog thinks he wants a pointing dog. But the only guy he runs into promotes pointing labs. So the guy buys a pointing lab,but finds out it never points. So back to the pointing lab breeder only to find out the pups aren't guarenteed to point. Doesn't mean he didn't get a good dog he could hunt with but he certainly didn't get what he thought he was getting or what was represented to him.

[bean1031]

Currently I have a reglular flushing lab. Truthfully If I were to get a pointing dog of any sort it would be a setter, but the reason I think people like these dogs is just because they are labs. They didnt just randomly become the most popular dog in america at random. A person wants to buy a good family dog thats smart and can hunt the first thing that will come into a noobs mind is probubly a lab. He doesnt care about intensity or style but just wants a good dog that can hunt and he probubly wants a pointer because he thinks its "cool". So he says why not a lab, I have heard their great!

THE END

[GsPJustin]

I'm sure this will strike a nerve, but its my honest opinion.

IMO,FWIW, (insert other flaming deadening acronym) The reason for pointing labs is much the same as AA gsps and Brittanies. People grew up with them, or like there look or there temperament or so on, so they take the dog that they like and try to make it do what they like. Instead of settling on a breed, they pick a color for example and go from there. Almost like the Car selector on Vehix. They want a fuzzy retriever that will point there pheasants for them as well, maybes its others trying to create there own All in one dog, like some have found with Gsps, DDs, GWPs, WPGs, etc

[tfbirddog2]

After reading alot of the post and think I guess we all might be over looking the breeding to get a PL perhaps its the"I want a good family house dog,but I like pointers"IMO that is another thing that I think is a miss conseption about pointers is they cant be good house dogs(except Britts) I know plenty of EPs and GSPs that are house dogs does everyone dig what Im getting at.IMO I think that might be the true invention of the P.L..It might just need to be a staple that they have to go see a trainer to be finish to be called a pointer and not a Sometimes Pointing Lab.

[mountaindogs]

I'll take the bait and throw in my opinions.

First I adore labs. Always have. There is very little in my mind cuter than a lab puppy and their classic temperment is ideal.

Our lab hesitates and lifts a front leg when she gets birdy. It would not have taken much to teach her to point.

My only hesitation would apply to any breed being bred for a different purpose than it was originally bred for. Selective breeding FOR pointing traits are going to shift what the lab is. Already field labs are thinner and longer legged than the breed was 50 years ago. SO I guess the physical attributes for speed and endurance are already developing in that direction. But personality is something to consider too. What makes a good pointing dog. Drive, indepednence, a dog that gets out and hunts hard, that doesn't wait for directions all the time, but looks and searches on their own with an ear out for directions, and all sorts of other details that most of you all know way more about than I. This is what pointing dogs have been selected for, for generations. If we take a dog bred for something else and selectively breed for pointing, I believe over time, the differences between the breeds personalities will become less. Some of the things that I love about the lab may be lost.

SO that said. I'd bet most labs could point now, without selective breeding to do so. May take a touch more training to be steady than a versatile breed or pointer.
I have no problem with training a dog to be more diverse. But breeding a line of dogs for something else, that is maybe a worry. For the breed. To many breeds have field and show lines. I would not like to see 3 different labs instead of two. And would really hate to lose what is loved about the lab by pushing them in a differnt direction. I know good breeders would look at behavior and temperment, but the things that make a lab an EXCELLENT retriever, a specialist in it may not be (and I believe they are not) the things that make a Pointer or Setter an EXCELLENT pointing dog, a specialist. There are many pointers and setters that love water and love to retrieve, many labs that can point, but still I do not believe they are the same breed and I value there different personalities.

And why do we have pointing labs. I have an opinion on this too. How many wild birds are left? You guys in the mid west have em still but we have VERY VERY few. And a flushing dog is sure tough on pen raised birds. Birds that often don't fly, or fly well, only go 20-30 yards then drop or fly very very low, will create ALOT of issues for your flusher, unless they are REALLY trained to stop as soon as that bird is in the air. TOUGH training I would imagine. It's tough enough with a pointing dog. Maybe a la lover who want to hunt upland game, but has to preserve hunt will have an easier time if they train their dog to point.

I would love for out lab to point. Would be fun. I am not against the dogs. Just concerned about the selection over time for it.

[Rick Hall]

If you look at how Labs are are most often hunted in the country of their origin, GB, I'd say we've long since shifted their use to more diverse purpose.

[ezzy333]

The older Labs in this country have always been as long as I canremember a nicely proportioned dog. Then 30 years ago or so we saw the influx of the british lab withthe short legs and heavy head. They sure weren't appealing to me but it is just whatever a person likes. I don't think there is likely to be much difference in the type of a lab that points and one that flushes. But maybe way down the road there might be.

I would love to see the dogs get back to what they used to be with a little finer boned dog with some leg under them and not look like the fatted calf so many do today. I see a lot of them that can't get out in a field and last for more than an hour without being completely wornout and over heated. My labs of 30 years ago were a lot different.

Ezzy

[markj]

OK here is my take, an animal can be taught to do anything. I have 3 steers now that follow me around the lot like pups eat sweet feed right out of my hand why do I do this? So when I load em for the meat house I dont get hurt, I can also spray fly off on em when they are eating etc. Soon I bet I can have em pointing now if I could get a yard collar big enuff.........

I for one am amazed at what them circus animals can do. Delmar used to watch them trainers so he could learn something.....

[Rick Hall]

I would love to see the dogs get back to what they used to be with a little finer boned dog with some leg under them and not look like the fatted calf so many do today. I see a lot of them that can't get out in a field and last for more than an hour without being completely wornout and over heated. My labs of 30 years ago were a lot different.

Ezzy

Sounds like you're speaking of US bench, or just plain fat, Labs. Might want to check out some retriever trials or tests. And most British field Labs I've seen look like our field dogs. 'Course those who favor blockier Labs say field owners are ruining the breed...

[Trekmoor]

The show ring labs seen in the U.K. could be entered for a prize pig competition --- AND WIN IT

I get fed up hearing from the showring crowd how folk like me are ruining the breed - but it is THEIR dogs that don't have the athletic build needed for work and I prefer to draw a veil over their mental aptitude for the job !

To my way of thinking the "real" dual purpose labs were the old dogs such as "Knaith Banjo" Dogs like that won field trials one day and shows the next !!! This dogs "type" was far closer to the modern field trial lab than it is to the show lab - yet folk like me get accused of ruining the breed ! Sorry for the rant - a long time sore point was touched !!!

Bill T.

[highcotton]

One of my hunting buddies has a pointing Lab.

His weaknesses are heat tollerence and stamina. Even when he is well conditioned he just don't have the running gear to stay with it. He doesn't point but rather stops when he scents a bird.

His strengts are temperment, bidability, trainability and he is one heck of a good dead bird dog. I wouldn't say he has less nose than my setters but rather would describe it as a different kind of nose. He finds dead birds my setters miss.

Charles

[markj]

I would have to add when lookingas in everything you buy remember this, "buyer beware" addvertising usually is biased towards what is being sold, yes even in the dog world best to look over the animals, their parents and hopefully see them work even if it is just a pigion. Kinda like taking the used car for a test drive then to a mechanic you trust to look it over.

I have hunted with a lab that really did point. He was a big black lab this was almost 20 years ago. He learned this from my shorthair and kept on doing it thruout his life. Would even lift a paw as my dogdid. Was a real funny ste to see em on a point together. He was huge. I used to flat out miss birds cause I was laffing so hard, he was such a cute dog too. Had a personality that was very nice. Wasnt common to hear pointing labs at that time. I aways thought he learned it wasnt a trait he was born with.

Dogs can be taught to do almost anything. Is it natural for a dog to find bombs or drugs? well maybe the south american breeds that is a jokethere...

When I was a kid, guy across the way was an undercover drug guy and had a dog that would find drugs. He told me the trick was to feed the dog drugs, it would then want them and find them. Dont know if it was true or if he was pulling my leg. That guy is now high up in the Sheriffs dept in that area. I was a friend of his brother, he had a mongoloid gene and was the neighborhood kid. We all lookedafter him so he didnt get into trouble.

[BigShooter]

For all of this talk about labs we've had only one member cast a vote indicating lab ownership in the poll section.

Looks like lots of prior owners and no current owners on the forum.

Lab owners unite, stand up and vote!