Gun Dog Forum

If you were to pick a breed of dogs to breed, would you rather choose something common, yet still in demand like a GSP, or something a little more rare like a Deutsch-Drahthaar even though they are not AKC registered? I would like to start breeding the Deutsch-Drahthaar within the next 3-5 years, but I am worried that since they are not a registered member of the AKC that they may not be as well received as some of the other breeds. Thoughts? Thanks for the feedback in advance.

Corry

I wouldn't even consider breeding any breed unless it is the breed you love and you have something that you think would improve the breed or at least keep it at a high level. What you are asking it sounds like is which can I make the most money on and chances are you will never make any money breeding dogs.

Ezzy

No its not about the money, I dont have enough money to invest in that many sires and dams Seriously though I was asking more along the lines of when I did breed, I dont want to have say, 4 pups still here out of a litter of 8. As far as my fondness of the breeds go, I really like the DD, and I love the GSP. I just think the underdog part of me would like to help get more DDs out there lol.

Corry

Please don't take this as negative but you are talking about breeding a dog that you don't even own yet. Regardless of the research you have done, you are making a huge assumption that the dog you buy, regardless of the breed or line of dogs you purchase from, that your dog will qualify as breed stock. This will be especially true if you opt to go the DD or DK route with their breeding qualifications (though the DD group tends to be much more stringent). IMHO you are not just putting the cart before the horse but you are traveling down a road not even built yet.

That said, if you do qualify a good dog, people will come. Breed will not determine your ability to sell dogs as good breedings attract buyers.

I appreciate the feedback, like I said, I still have 3-5 years to think about it. I just want to get a great male and female to add to my family, and if we get puppies to sell them to people who will give them good homes and make the pup a top priority.

Corry

Where to start?
If you plan to buy a puppy,raise it,train it,title it in some venue and hope it turns out to be a breedable dog , you will need a lot of finances,time and luck. Then if you plan to do this with a male and female both that is x2 on every thing. If you plan to buy a adult bitch bring all the money you can get your hands on. Quality bitches are priceless and rare.
This very well can be done but you need to be passionate about the dogs and close your eyes to the expenditures and keep on trying. If you have a close relative by marriage hopefully he or she will buy in. It can get a little tough when you have to spend the grocery money on training birds. Or the vet ranks higher than the family doctor.
The biggest asset you can have is absolute, undeniable integrety(sp). The dog world is very small and word spreads very fast, good or bad.
Good breeding bitches are priceless and you should be working with the breed you are thinking of breeding now if you plan to breeding 3to 5 years. learn all you can about the breed, take every thing you read or hear with a grain of salt and form your own ideas and opinions. Be prepared to change when you need to.
You will have no problem selling the puppies if you have "good" dogs but be prepared to deal with some you may have to keep longer than eight weeks and don't drop the price. Remember there are millions of buyers you only need eight or ten.
Breeding is tough and many things can go wrong. Like finding out the female pup you bought and raised for two years has bad hips and a million other things. But once you get established it is very rewarding and the personal satisfaction is great. Meeting people from all over the country and Canada is a very nice experience. When every buyer tells you the got the pick of the litter at one year old it doesn't get any better.
Good luck. If you are going to do it start now,spend what you need to, get the best you can find(you best not what other people tell you) develope yout own line of dogs and you will be fine. Most AKC breeders only last four years CJ

I know where you're coming from, man. I've wanted to breed dogs since I was 13 years old. It's almost like I feel drawn to it. But, I don't want to breed junk. I think your eMail could come off like you're asking from an economic position, which breed would be more profitable, but I don't think that's what you're asking. For me, I worried about the puppies because if I wanted to breed and started breeding dogs of a breed that didn't have any kind of demand then I would either end up with a ton of extra dogs or the puppies would end up heading down a dead end road.

I have done a lot of studying and research on this and have spoken with a lot of breeders and, honestly, the answer, I think, is to go with the breed you really prefer. If YOU like DD the best, then go that route. Some people breed dogs strictly for income and make no excuses for it. Shady Meadows in Hume, Missouri breeds strictly for income and the owner told me once that he breeds over 200 puppies a year and he sold them for cheap to keep them moving out the door. I won't comment on this because I don't know if I could hold my tongue.

If you're in it for the breed, though, then you have to build demand. If you look at most poeple who breed the less popular breeds - DD, Pudelpointers, etc - you'll probably find that they have really invested in their program and their breeding stock. They have titles on their dogs and have been doing it for a long time. I mean, if you have a VC on your dog, you're probably not going to have a problem placing puppies. But, if you just advertise for them in the local paper, without titles, you'll not do so well. And the less you breed the easier you'll be able to place all your pups.

If I were you I'd consider going at it slow. Take on a few dogs, invest in them, title them, get them know, then breed a litter. If you can get deposits from people before hand, or get a waiting list, all the better. From that first litter you'll be able to gauge how in demand your pups will be. If they're gone before they're born, you're in good shape. If they're still in your back yard when they're a year old, you are probably not in a position to increase the number of litters you breed in a period of time. I mean, even Bob Wehle didn't have people knocking down his door for his first pups but today the word Elhew is used as a marketing tool in virtually every ad for Pointers in the PDJ.

The word "Elhew" is in nearly every pointer ad in PDJ because the people with good stuff don't have to advertise.

Pick the DD you like, find the best possible breeding of your ideal dogs, buy a pup, train the pup, have a trainer evaluate the dog, IF the dog is good and has what you are looking for find a stud with the same traits or better and breed them. Try to create your ideal dog over and over. When something pops up that you don't like take it out of your gene pool, continue to look for dogs with your ideal traits to add to your line. Do this over and over until you burn out or create the perfect dog (will never happen, but it keeps us breeding). These are the people I want to buy dogs from. They have a vision. There is a lot of these guys and girls out there. Some may be bigtime breeders and sale 5 or 6 litters a year and some may breed a litter ever couple of years. These are breeding with a purpose.

OR buy a male from the latest and greatest litter you can find and a female from another litter, spend $1000 on a super web site and start selling pups in 2 years. These are not necessarily bad breeders or bad people they just know how to market their product. Again these are some big time breeders producing 5 or 6 litters a year or they are the ones breeding a litter every other year. These are breeding for fun.

One way is a ton of studing pedigrees, seeing dogs, and down right work and the other is not, but they both will work.

Felicia, Steve Snell and Steve Smith are both Elhew fans. I know Snell owns a half Elhew dog that is pretty well-known. I don't know if Steve Smith has an Elhew right now, but I think I remember him posting that he does. I don't think anyone would knock either of these guys' education on birddogs and lines and either could own virtually any kind of dog of any breed they wanted. On top of that, current studs with Elhew Kennels go for a $1,500 fee and pups are $2,000. I don't know many other "not good" birddogs go for that price.

All I mean is, "good" is in the eye of the beholder.

Stoneface wrote:Felicia, Steve Snell and Steve Smith are both Elhew fans. I know Snell owns a half Elhew dog that is pretty well-known. I don't know if Steve Smith has an Elhew right now, but I think I remember him posting that he does. I don't think anyone would knock either of these guys' education on birddogs and lines and either could own virtually any kind of dog of any breed they wanted. On top of that, current studs with Elhew Kennels go for a $1,500 fee and pups are $2,000. I don't know many other "not good" birddogs go for that price.

All I mean is, "good" is in the eye of the beholder.

He has been dead ten years. Others have gone forward with the foundation and accomplished plenty without the pricey prefix. If someone wants to pay that amount of change to breed to a name, more power to them Stud fees for some of the top performance dogs in the country are far less.

This could seriously turn into a hijack in a major way. Let's resolve to agree to disagree to let the thread stay on track.

Thank you all for the feedback it is much appreciated. I am not wanting to go all out and have 3 sires and 5 dams poppin out lots of litters a year. Like I said earlier, I want to share my love of the dogs with many people and place the dogs in great homes.

Corry

You are probably better off to own a bitch or two and breed to and outside stud. It gives you a lot more options. Sometimes it seems stud fees are exspensive but it is a lot cheaper than titling and keeping the dog.
WE know of one kennel which started with four mediocre dogs and a lot of hype, by breeding to the popular stud dogs of the of the day from a certain blood line. he promoted himself into one of the top breeders in the mid west.
Also be aware of the dormitory effect, if one comes into season they all do so they won't let you have a litter every six months or whatever. It's pretty much up to the ladies and feast or famine.
CJ

Ghosted3 wrote:Thank you all for the feedback it is much appreciated. I am not wanting to go all out and have 3 sires and 5 dams poppin out lots of litters a year. Like I said earlier, I want to share my love of the dogs with many people and place the dogs in great homes.

Corry

Since you have chosen a less common breed that has a fairly demanding proof system for breeding, have you considered working with an established breeder to learn the testing system and have support for producing a litter? This can be much less stressful.

1. Go get a dog.
2. Develop dog, train dog, hunt dog, test/trial dog.
3. If enough people come to you begging you to breed dog and with deposit money in hand, seriously think about breeding dog.

Greg Jennings wrote:1. Go get a dog.
2. Develop dog, train dog, hunt dog, test/trial dog.
3. If enough people come to you begging you to breed dog and with deposit money in hand, seriously think about breeding dog.

My only problem with that is I have no desire to run my dog in trials. I am not saying it is a bad thing, its just not for me. I do understand that it would be better for the breeding by saying the sire / dam have placed or won in such and such, but that isnt a driving point for me.
It seems like the question that I asked in the beginning has been lost lol. Oh well its all good though.

Sorry for kind of losing site of your question. But most of this info actually is about your question. The breed you choose has very little to do with it. It is about taking the time it takes to learn all you can about the breed and believing in the breed and your self.
We feel very honored to have our puppies be part of our clients family for many years.
Titles are more about getting to know the dogs most of our clients couldn't care less.
Thanks and good luck CJ

Ghosted3 wrote:

Greg Jennings wrote:1. Go get a dog.
2. Develop dog, train dog, hunt dog, test/trial dog.
3. If enough people come to you begging you to breed dog and with deposit money in hand, seriously think about breeding dog.

My only problem with that is I have no desire to run my dog in trials. I am not saying it is a bad thing, its just not for me. I do understand that it would be better for the breeding by saying the sire / dam have placed or won in such and such, but that isnt a driving point for me.
It seems like the question that I asked in the beginning has been lost lol. Oh well its all good though.

Whether you have the desire or not, if you're going to breed DD's you HAVE to test them prior, and pass of course. If you are anywhere near serious about this endeavor, you need to join your local VDD GNA and see what's involved. I would also recommend attending an HZP test, so you get a feel for all the different requirements you will need to train for. This isn't just about buying two pups and breeding them 2 years later, this is a serious commitment that's going to take up a good bit of your time, unless you pay to have someone else do all of it for you...which is going to take a good bit of your money. Maybe you know more about this than I think you do, but I'm not getting that impression.


AKC registration has nothing to do with selling pups. It's supply and demand, reputation, and what you do with your dogs that counts. My friends don't seem to have any trouble selling their DD pups, and I've been friends with them through 10 litters over the years.

Ghosted3 wrote:Thank you all for the feedback it is much appreciated. I am not wanting to go all out and have 3 sires and 5 dams poppin out lots of litters a year. Like I said earlier, I want to share my love of the dogs with many people and place the dogs in great homes.

Corry

Share your love for the dogs and buy one, go to tests, get it trained or train it, and get a professionals opinion on if you should breed. Don't share your love by breeding a dog to have puppys. specially when you don't have the money or space to keep them all if they are returned for health issues, bad bite, too soft to train, lack drive, etc. Leave breeding to those that make sure the dogs are worth it and have the time and money to back it.

ultracarry wrote:

Ghosted3 wrote:Thank you all for the feedback it is much appreciated. I am not wanting to go all out and have 3 sires and 5 dams poppin out lots of litters a year. Like I said earlier, I want to share my love of the dogs with many people and place the dogs in great homes.

Corry

Share your love for the dogs and buy one, go to tests, get it trained or train it, and get a professionals opinion on if you should breed. Don't share your love by breeding a dog to have puppys. specially when you don't have the money or space to keep them all if they are returned for health issues, bad bite, too soft to train, lack drive, etc. Leave breeding to those that make sure the dogs are worth it and have the time and money to back it.

Whamo Bamo, Nailed it. There are plenty of average dogs out there.

Ghosted3 wrote:

Greg Jennings wrote:1. Go get a dog.
2. Develop dog, train dog, hunt dog, test/trial dog.
3. If enough people come to you begging you to breed dog and with deposit money in hand, seriously think about breeding dog.

My only problem with that is I have no desire to run my dog in trials. I am not saying it is a bad thing, its just not for me. I do understand that it would be better for the breeding by saying the sire / dam have placed or won in such and such, but that isnt a driving point for me.
It seems like the question that I asked in the beginning has been lost lol. Oh well its all good though.

Then dont look at the DD or DK. To breed these dogs you will need to have run them through the VJP and HZP at min. Then I think most looking for a pup will look for the parents to have been run through the VGP. This will take 2-3 years of training and testing to accomplish.
Thats just the testing portion of it. You are still looking at if the dogs coat and conformation qualifies(these arent like AKC dogs where you can breed whatever with whom ever. I am sure someone is going to take that statement as a dig and it isnt, just fact) and how they rate in their breed shows. Then there are hip scores.
It might take you 3-5 years just to get your breeding pair. Then, they might not be compatible with each other.

If you arent ready and willing to have to hold on to 4 out of 8 pups, then you arent ready to breed. It just comes with it. You may have to sit on those pups and get them started.

I am thinking you have about 3-5 years of homework to do yet.

Gee, thanks, Munster. Now he'll pick shorthairs. Nice pets, too, you know.

EXCELLENT post. AKC isn't the authority, you are correct.

Cajun Casey wrote:Gee, thanks, Munster. Now he'll pick shorthairs. Nice pets, too, you know.

EXCELLENT post. AKC isn't the authority, you are correct.

I told you I meant no disrespect to AKC or those who have AKC dogs. Just stating the facts. I just dont feel like this guy has done a bit of research or he wouldnt have bulked at the trialing statement.

I dont think he, or anyone, should breed hamsters until he gets the facts.

Stoneface wrote:Felicia, Steve Snell and Steve Smith are both Elhew fans. I know Snell owns a half Elhew dog that is pretty well-known. I don't know if Steve Smith has an Elhew right now, but I think I remember him posting that he does. I don't think anyone would knock either of these guys' education on birddogs and lines and either could own virtually any kind of dog of any breed they wanted. On top of that, current studs with Elhew Kennels go for a $1,500 fee and pups are $2,000. I don't know many other "not good" birddogs go for that price.

All I mean is, "good" is in the eye of the beholder.

Steve Snells dog Mac is a Phantoms Wizard x Phantoms Southern Sky breeding. Wizard is a helluva dog i think i have 4 out of him. Hes heavy Nemaha Dime no elhew. Southern Sky is all Miller and Go Boy and thats why i bought her. Skys sire Nat CH Millers Southern Pride is a full brother to my Kraftsmans Ko Kane along with Wiggins prarie Knot and Millers Dateline. The 1500 to 2000 per elhew pup buyers are also in the same crowd as those who pay 1500 to 2000 for the hybrids on the other thread. Elhew does real well when crossed with Miller, Rockacre, Guardrail. Dont get me wrong There are still some pretty much close to real Elhews running around my place too.

gotpointers wrote:

Stoneface wrote:Felicia, Steve Snell and Steve Smith are both Elhew fans. I know Snell owns a half Elhew dog that is pretty well-known. I don't know if Steve Smith has an Elhew right now, but I think I remember him posting that he does. I don't think anyone would knock either of these guys' education on birddogs and lines and either could own virtually any kind of dog of any breed they wanted. On top of that, current studs with Elhew Kennels go for a $1,500 fee and pups are $2,000. I don't know many other "not good" birddogs go for that price.

All I mean is, "good" is in the eye of the beholder.

Steve Snells dog Mac is a Phantoms Wizard x Phantoms Southern Sky breeding. Wizard is a helluva dog i think i have 4 out of him. Hes heavy Nemaha Dime no elhew. Southern Sky is all Miller and Go Boy and thats why i bought her. Skys sire Nat CH Millers Southern Pride is a full brother to my Kraftsmans Ko Kane along with Wiggins prarie Knot and Millers Dateline. The 1500 to 2000 per elhew pup buyers are also in the same crowd as those who pay 1500 to 2000 for the hybrids on the other thread. Elhew does real well when crossed with Miller, Rockacre, Guardrail. Dont get me wrong There are still some pretty much close to real Elhews running around my place too.

Exactly. The world has moved on in ten years. I believe I have mentioned a Phanton dog to you who goes back to Elhew through her sire's bottom line.

Munster wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote:Gee, thanks, Munster. Now he'll pick shorthairs. Nice pets, too, you know.

EXCELLENT post. AKC isn't the authority, you are correct.

I told you I meant no disrespect to AKC or those who have AKC dogs. Just stating the facts. I just dont feel like this guy has done a bit of research or he wouldnt have bulked at the trialing statement.

I dont think he, or anyone, should breed hamsters until he gets the facts.

I don't think you're being negative toward AKC at all. Too many people see dog breeding from an AKC standpoint and don't realize there are other registries and breed associations that govern dog breeding. I recently was witness to someone reading the beads over an FDSB setter breeder for not hunt testing their breeding stock. Wow.

Got Pointers, I wasn't talking about Mac, I was talking about Click. Dan Hendrickson said he's by *Wizard* (<-- just corrected this), out of an Elhew bitch. I haven't seen the pedigree, so I don't know if he's using the term "Elhew" loosely or not.

I know Steve Smith really advocated Elhews and said he's had them for years. Other people who could have their pick of any dog and has the expertise to make an educated selection also own Elhews. They're not for everyone, for sure, but there are some who will not own anything else. I would really agree with you that the pups are sold for that price in large part because buyers want that name, but Elhew blood is still winning field trials. I'm not much of a trialer right now, but I can recognize the Elhew prefix when I see it in a placement listing. Maybe not AA and maybe not to the degree of some, but Wehle never wanted to breed trial dogs and made no claim to.

Stoneface wrote:Got Pointers, I wasn't talking about Mac, I was talking about Click. Dan Hendrickson said he's by Phantom, out of an Elhew bitch. I haven't seen the pedigree, so I don't know if he's using the term "Elhew" loosely or not.

I know Steve Smith really advocated Elhews and said he's had them for years. Other people who could have their pick of any dog and has the expertise to make an educated selection also own Elhews. They're not for everyone, for sure, but there are some who will not own anything else. I would really agree with you that the pups are sold for that price in large part because buyers want that name, but Elhew blood is still winning field trials. I'm not much of a trialer right now, but I can recognize the Elhew prefix when I see it in a placement listing. Maybe not AA and maybe not to the degree of some, but Wehle never wanted to breed trial dogs and made no claim to.

I do know Dan bred to Lancelot recently. A dog named Phantom that you refer to i haven't seen or heard anything about. Phantom is the prefix name for his kennels. I think its named after his proximity to Phantom Air Force Base. Lancelot is a Rebel sireline dog according to Steeple over on the Field Trialer site.
I had a pretty decent Elhew out of Elhew Bullfrog from yellow rose kennels. I have read and studied a whole lot about Mr Whele I have the books Snakefoot, Wing and Shot. I understand his breeding, his focus and how his recognition an reputation live on. Nothing personal we all have diffrent likes and dislikes and an ultimate goal in our programs. That being said i will continue in a direction to focus on Millers White Powder offspring. But i will continue to buy dogs from just about every line out there to compare results so i do not become kennel blind. I don't care if the mainstream likes them or not, same for the judges. I pay to feed and house them and i just breed what's going to make me and not the masses happy.

gotpointers wrote: I think its named after his proximity to Phantom Air Force Base.

I may not be an authority on bird dogs, but I can tell you definitively that there is no Phantom Air Force Base. I do not believe that there has ever been a Phantom Air Force Base or field. It is not on my list of closed or renamed AFBs or fields.

There is, of course, the famous McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II air plane. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_ ... Phantom_II .

Not that it matters.

Greg J.

Greg Jennings wrote:

gotpointers wrote: I think its named after his proximity to Phantom Air Force Base.

I may not be an authority on bird dogs, but I can tell you definitively that there is no Phantom Air Force Base. I do not believe that there has ever been a Phantom Air Force Base or field. It is not on my list of closed or renamed AFBs or fields.

There is, of course, the famous McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II air plane. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_ ... Phantom_II .

Not that it matters.

Greg J.

It may be fort phantom? Or something like that. I was there last Friday at the kennels. Something millitary in Abilene right near Phantom Kennels. I do suffer from a mild to extreme case of CRS... I like to blame it on working nights.

I think this is probably it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Phantom_Hill .

Greg J.

Thanks Greg that is it. I was just going on what i had seen on the road signs driving in on the four times i went there. I sort of recall "home of ----- squadron" i don't know if a squadron may refer to more than an aviation group though.

Glad to be of help. I've never been to Abilene. I always wondered if I could see it on a clear day from the water tower on the hill above my house in West Fort Worth, though .

GP, I meant to say Wizard, not Phantom. Everytime I think of Phantom Kennels I think of that dog, so I always call him Phantom by mistake. I made the correction.

I see where you are coming from....to the original question, i own a britt, a gsp, and a drahthaar. I personally would not consider breeding the gsp or britt unless i could put some major titles of some kind on them. There are just too many good ones already out and it can be hard to get them all sold unless you are known and your dogs are known.
The drahthaar is a breed that is becoming more popular all the time, i know that most breeders out west have them mostly sold before they hit the ground with alot of people having waiting lists. But having said that the dog has to pass multiple hunt tests before they are eligible to be bred. Females need to pass puppy and intermediate, males have to pass those two plus finished dog test i believe to be eligible for breeding. Also a breed show for both. So you have to put the time and training into the dog to get to that point.

If you were to pick a breed of dogs to breed, would you rather choose something common, yet still in demand like a GSP, or something a little more rare like a Deutsch-Drahthaar even though they are not AKC registered? I would like to start breeding the Deutsch-Drahthaar within the next 3-5 years, but I am worried that since they are not a registered member of the AKC that they may not be as well received as some of the other breeds. Thoughts? Thanks for the feedback in advance.

Corry

There are already too many DD being bred. VERY good pups from experienced breeders are sitting around unsold...heard of several pups out of top foreign studs that were given away. If you are talking about breeding occasionally when you have a really top dog, it may work. You won't make money...do it because you won't to make a contribution and feel you have a dog that really needs to contribute. Oh..BTW...if you are going to start breeding, plan on getting involved with the club and help with the testing of those dogs too.