Service Dogs

[DogNewbie]

Hey everyone,

Just curious if anyone has used their hunting dogs to double as service dogs. Obviously this would be difficult for people that heavily depend on their service dogs (such as seeing eye/sound dogs) but for more minor cases I feel like you could double it up. I have type 1 diabetes and I was reading the other day about training dogs to smell when your blood sugars are low. They say the best dogs for this are ones that have a strong connection with the owner, are good problem solvers and have a good nose....sounds like hunting dogs would work great for that. Plus I would be able to bring my dog with me where ever I go!

[DogNewbie]

Can anyone explain why it costs $10,000 to have your dog professionally trained as a diabetic alert dog? It seems like its just simple clicker training to me? What am I missing?

[KwikIrish]

I know a person who's dog also serves as a service/alert dog for a medical condition. That dog has been finished in the field and lives by the side of the person. Still runs in field trials and hunts regularly. There is a bond there that is absolutely unmatched by any I've seen before.

[KwikIrish]

Can anyone explain why it costs $10,000 to have your dog professionally trained as a diabetic alert dog? It seems like its just simple clicker training to me? What am I missing?

Because people are willing to pay, and not every person is cut out to train, especially to a level past the basic sit, stay, heel etc

[RoostersMom]

I'm not sure on the cost, however, I do know there is a recent trend for people to "claim" their dogs are trained service or therapy dogs so they can take the dogs with them in places where dogs aren't generally allowed. I think it is a horrible trend - just like folks who sneak their dogs into hotels that don't allow dogs. It gives the legitimate service dogs a bad name when someone has an ill-trained dog that they're just claiming is a service dog and the dog has had no obedience or other specialized training. I don't know if "registration" is required to prove the dog has been legitimately trained or not - but IMO, it should be required. Too many purse puppies are out there in grocery stores and shopping areas because they are "emotional therapy dogs." And I'm pretty sure that being a therapy dog doesn't allow the dog any special rights like that of a true service dog.

Just one of my pet peeves, but I see people trying to get their dogs into places dogs aren't allowed by lying about the dog's training. Then the purse puppies are barking or nipping at people - just a shame to see that kind of thing go on. And I'm not saying that you'd do that with your pup, I'm just responding to the topic of "service" or "therapy" dogs.

[Cajun Casey]

There is a huge difference between service dogs, which provide a service to an individual which that individual is unable to provide for themself, and therapy dogs which are used in a variety of settings with persons other than their handler. Service dogs are covered by ADA and have very few regulations. Therapy dogs undergo extensive training and evaluation by the organizations that certify them. DIY service dogs are a trend and a PIA for the public. There are several organizations that "register" service dogs for a fee. Could you slide your pet or hunting dog by as a diabetic alert dog? Sure. Can you handler train it to be reliable? Probably not.

[KwikIrish]

There is a huge difference between service dogs, which provide a service to an individual which that individual is unable to provide for themself, and therapy dogs which are used in a variety of settings with persons other than their handler. Service dogs are covered by ADA and have very few regulations. Therapy dogs undergo extensive training and evaluation by the organizations that certify them. DIY service dogs are a trend and a PIA for the public. There are several organizations that "register" service dogs for a fee. Could you slide your pet or hunting dog by as a diabetic alert dog? Sure. Can you handler train it to be reliable? Probably not.

Felicia makes a valid point. Not every dog is able to preform as a service dog. As far as alert dogs go, some just don't have what it takes to be in tune to your body enought to alert you or others when said medical condition is taking effect or whatever the case may be.

[mountaindogs]

The time and knowledge to train for 100% consistacy, the time and knowledge TO TRAIN THE TEAM TOGETEHR with much emphasis put on the human part (how good are most dog trainers at teaching people to be 100% consistant) boarding feed and care during the training, liability insurance, licensing and regulation expenses.... i am sure there is more. Remeber the dog is not just learning the diabetic alert skills, but the manners and citizen skills to go everywhere and behave always while on the job. Anything less than the best can have serious consequences.

Therapy dogs are different. More like the docent volunteers. I have a therapy dog and Sky is nearly ready to test for therapy work as well.

[Cajun Casey]

The time and knowledge to train for 100% consistacy, the time and knowledge TO TRAIN THE TEAM TOGETEHR with much emphasis put on the human part (how good are most dog trainers at teaching people to be 100% consistant) boarding feed and care during the training, liability insurance, licensing and regulation expenses.... i am sure there is more. Remeber the dog is not just learning the diabetic alert skills, but the manners and citizen skills to go everywhere and behave always while on the job. Anything less than the best can have serious consequences.

Therapy dogs are different. More like the docent volunteers. I have a therapy dog and Sky is nearly ready to test for therapy work as well.

Service dogs do not require ANYTHING to be a service dog. That's the problem with the DIY handlers. There is no insurance requirement, no professional certification, nothing. A handler may be asked two questions with respect to the animal's presence: Is it a service dog? What does it do? Disruptive dogs may be excluded from businesses, but the customer must be offered compensatory service.

[DogNewbie]

That's interesting. I might start alert training my pup just for piece of mind at night. I really don't need him to go everywhere with me since I can feel low sugars pretty well but there are times when your sugars have been really screwy all day that going to bed sometimes makes you a little nervous. I read up a little on the training and I'm starting to understand why it costs so much. Sounds like the goal is to create a Pavlovian response to the smell of low or high sugars that triggers the dog to respond. Generally it is a nose nudge for high sugars and a paw for low sugars, but they stress problem solving skills in the dogs for the cases where you can't respond to the ques giving by the dog. Really interesting testimonies of dogs that have jumped through screen doors or or windows and figured out how to get a stranger to follow them to their unconscious owner. I can see where imprinting that sort of instinctive response would take some extensive training. Really interesting stuff.

[Cajun Casey]

That's interesting. I might start alert training my pup just for piece of mind at night. I really don't need him to go everywhere with me since I can feel low sugars pretty well but there are times when your sugars have been really screwy all day that going to bed sometimes makes you a little nervous. I read up a little on the training and I'm starting to understand why it costs so much. Sounds like the goal is to create a Pavlovian response to the smell of low or high sugars that triggers the dog to respond. Generally it is a nose nudge for high sugars and a paw for low sugars, but they stress problem solving skills in the dogs for the cases where you can't respond to the ques giving by the dog. Really interesting testimonies of dogs that have jumped through screen doors or or windows and figured out how to get a stranger to follow them to their unconscious owner. I can see where imprinting that sort of instinctive response would take some extensive training. Really interesting stuff.

You might want to talk to someone who is involved with K9 Nosework. You are in Minnesota? Try these people.

http://www.nacsw.net/cnwilisting.php

[DogNewbie]

The time and knowledge to train for 100% consistacy, the time and knowledge TO TRAIN THE TEAM TOGETEHR with much emphasis put on the human part (how good are most dog trainers at teaching people to be 100% consistant) boarding feed and care during the training, liability insurance, licensing and regulation expenses.... i am sure there is more. Remeber the dog is not just learning the diabetic alert skills, but the manners and citizen skills to go everywhere and behave always while on the job. Anything less than the best can have serious consequences.

Therapy dogs are different. More like the docent volunteers. I have a therapy dog and Sky is nearly ready to test for therapy work as well.

Service dogs do not require ANYTHING to be a service dog. That's the problem with the DIY handlers. There is no insurance requirement, no professional certification, nothing. A handler may be asked two questions with respect to the animal's presence: Is it a service dog? What does it do? Disruptive dogs may be excluded from businesses, but the customer must be offered compensatory service.

Yeah that what I gathered as well after reading the ADA. Since I don't suffer from terrible and frequent low sugars I would never spend the amount of cash to train my dog to be a full functioning service dog, even if I had the cash to do it, but hypothetically, if I were to do so, do you think it would decrease the pups effectiveness in the field? My hunch is that it would. From the little reading I've done, it sounds like they condition these dogs to the point where thier focus is on me 100% of the time...nothing distracts them. They are trained to be working 24/7. I doesn't sound like you can have the best of both worlds without sacrificing something on either end. I don't want a hunting dog that is unwilling to stray too far from me and I don't want a service dog that will ignore my needs if there's a bird in the area. Looks like the only option is to get a second dog

[mountaindogs]

Now your on the right track -- sounds like a puppy justification.

[Munster]

That's interesting. I might start alert training my pup just for piece of mind at night. I really don't need him to go everywhere with me since I can feel low sugars pretty well but there are times when your sugars have been really screwy all day that going to bed sometimes makes you a little nervous. I read up a little on the training and I'm starting to understand why it costs so much. Sounds like the goal is to create a Pavlovian response to the smell of low or high sugars that triggers the dog to respond. Generally it is a nose nudge for high sugars and a paw for low sugars, but they stress problem solving skills in the dogs for the cases where you can't respond to the ques giving by the dog. Really interesting testimonies of dogs that have jumped through screen doors or or windows and figured out how to get a stranger to follow them to their unconscious owner. I can see where imprinting that sort of instinctive response would take some extensive training. Really interesting stuff.

I understand about the night sugars. I will say this, I have been woken up 3 times by my SM in the middles of the night. I had sugar readings in the 40's. First time I didnt think anything of it. figured I may have been moaning or something like that to trigger her( SHe woke me by licking my face) 2nd time I gave it a little more thought and the 3rd time I was convinced.
Now, has she alerted me during the day?.Nope. Just happens at night and I am fine with it. I do wish I could get her fromally trained to alert me though.

I hope you are able to find the answers that you need. It is very scary having lows at night. I have actually crawled to the kitchen to get my sugars up. Now, I wised up and keep a stash in my room.

[DogNewbie]

Wow that's amazing. I've heard some dogs are just natural alerters.

[mountaindogs]

I have heard that too. pretty neat.

[AzDoggin]

There are lots of amazing stories about dogs as 'medical condition detector dogs.' I heard about a neurologist who takes a red setter on his rounds with him because the dog alerts to pre-seizure states in patients.

As for therapy dogs, any cooperative dog could likely get certified with enough training. The Canine Good Citizen certification encompasses most of the requirements. http://www.akc.org/events/cgc/
Therapy Dog International extends the training a little, but not much. http://www.tdi-dog.org/ Basically, the dog has to be calm, obedient, and non-reactive in all situations.

[Cajun Casey]

A therapy dog is not a service dog and is not entitled to public access. A therapy dog has no more legal status than any other pet. Service dogs are not considered pets under ADA.

[AzDoggin]

A therapy dog has no more legal status than any other pet.

Yes and no. In public, yes, but many of the facilities in which therapy dogs work (hospitals, nursing homes) require TDI or similar certification before the animals are allowed in. I suspect these requirements come from the "risk management" departments in the respective organizations.

I do agree, though, service dogs and therapy dogs are completely different animals, so to speak.

One breeder claims that his dogs do it all (Celtic Red Setters - http://celtickennels.nrsftc.com/superior.htm)

at least 25 are therapy dogs, more than a dozen are guide dogs to the hearing impaired; more than a dozen are assistants to paraplegics; at least one is an "epilepsy dog" which detects the onset of an epileptic attack before it occurs; two walk rounds with a geriatric orthopedic surgeon and detect the onset of a stroke 24 hours before it occurs; 2 are drug dogs during the week, companions in the evening and hunt on weekends; at least 1 finds and points truffles, permitting the owner to dig them up, rather than having to let pigs dig them up and break the truffles . . . the point is, their extreme intelligence, overwhelming desire to please and calmness make them perfect as companions/hunting dogs!

[nikegundog]

I'm not sure on the cost, however, I do know there is a recent trend for people to "claim" their dogs are trained service or therapy dogs so they can take the dogs with them in places where dogs aren't generally allowed. I think it is a horrible trend - just like folks who sneak their dogs into hotels that don't allow dogs. It gives the legitimate service dogs a bad name when someone has an ill-trained dog that they're just claiming is a service dog and the dog has had no obedience or other specialized training. I don't know if "registration" is required to prove the dog has been legitimately trained or not - but IMO, it should be required. Too many purse puppies are out there in grocery stores and shopping areas because they are "emotional therapy dogs." And I'm pretty sure that being a therapy dog doesn't allow the dog any special rights like that of a true service dog.

Just one of my pet peeves, but I see people trying to get their dogs into places dogs aren't allowed by lying about the dog's training. Then the purse puppies are barking or nipping at people - just a shame to see that kind of thing go on. And I'm not saying that you'd do that with your pup, I'm just responding to the topic of "service" or "therapy" dogs.

Now you can add miniature horses to that list, can you imagine going out to eat in a fine restaurant and have a horse next to you.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/new-dis ... ini-horses