Choosing a new GSP puppy

[Ironhorse77]

hey everybody~
My friend's dog had puppies about 5 weeks ago. I have been going over and watching them and playing with them once a week in order to get to know them and their personalities.

I'm having a problem deciding which pup I want. I have narrowed it down to 2. One has the pattern I would really like to have, but he seems to be the brut of the litter. He's not mean, but he likes to stir up trouble and is pretty dominant. The other one has a little more patching than I would prefer but tends to stay to himself a little more and always likes to be by me when I'm in the kennel with them. Could he end up the shy wuss or will he become the family / hunter that I'm looking for. The pedigree is great and I know the dogs well.

I have a lab that is intelligent, obedient (responds well to correction) and would do anything I tell him to do, calm in the house and around the kids yet continues to be very energetic when I need him to be. I'd like the same in my GSP, any advice on what to look for in the right pup for me?

[Ironhorse77]

Thanks for all the great help and replies. 8 days and not one response.

What a plethora of information this forum is....and friendly too!

[mtlee]

You could of just bumped your thread up without the comments...Insulting a group of people is not the best way to get their help.

As for your question, I really don't know what to tell you as I've only really picked out one puppy in my life...not counting when I was 10

[ssjetset]

Sorry, did'nt see your topic till just now, been in GSP's for 30 years now and the puppy choice thing is a crap shoot, I would be very interested in how the parents are and what line does it come from , the pups will develop according to thier genetic make up and thier new enviroment, you can test for boldness though. Pick your choices up in your arms and lay them on thier backs if the pup stares you straight in the eye chances are he'll be a hand full, good luck, some of the folks here are very informative, give it a another chance , some are goofs :roll: Bill

[Greg Jennings]

When I first saw it, I didn't reply because there really wasn't enough information on which to base an opinion.

If it was me, I'd take the middle of the road pup vice the alpha pup. But that's me, for my particular situation.

BTW, I think that you will find this to be a really friendly place.

Best regards, Greg J.

[Theresa]

Folks would have seen it and responded better.

That said...

I have raised a tiny handful of litters -so take my advice with a grain of salt.

I think trying to pick a pup at 5 weeks is picking a pig in a poke. Yes, you see some traits, but you aren't really seeing the pup - especially when the pup is in the litter and in familiar setting. I for sure would not make my selection based on coat color; pretty spots alone don't put meat on the table.

You may want to see how the pup does when you take it away from every thing it knows. If you can take the pup to the neighbor across the road, in the back yard, ie out of sight and sound and scent (hopefully) -if you take the pups one at a time, you may be very surprised with what you see. I have seen wuss pups in the litter become big and bold when the bully brother isn't there to push them around; I have also seen the bully of the litter turn into the wuss when taken out of the comfort zone.

So, that is the best advice I can give - try taking the pup away from its comfort zone and you may see its 'true' personality/temperament. Some of the Vollhard puppy aptitude tests may be of use to you - some swear by them, some poo-poo them (ie breeders who been breeding 50 years and can call a good dog wet) - but for someone in your shoes, it may be useful.

http://www.volhard.com/puppy/pat.htm

[Pryor Creek Okie]

I'm wondering how you narrowed it down to the "brut of the litter" and the "shy wuss". Those are the two I would generally try to stay away from.

[AHGSP]

Wow! Bad day? Apologies, but somehow your post got missed. May have gotten a response quicker in the General discussion.

Here is my .02:

I like my Shorthairs to be bold and independent of me. You may not like the same. As per Theresa's statement, I like to see the pup taken to a completely strange and unfamiliar place and then put down on the ground as a group. I'm looking for the 1st one to get up and get out and go exploring around the new surroundings away from me, the owner and the rest of the litter and they will get filed in the back of my mind in order. Next, I want to see them put down 1 at a time and again am looking for the pup that wants to get out away from the owner and I and go exploring. If it is the same pup that was 1st when all together, then that will be one of my most likely candidates. In my world, this will be the dog that; will want to please me, will get "out there" and operate without constantly requiring direction from me and will be confident in all manner of situations. They will be confident in all of their associations in life, meet people in a bold "How do you do!? manner" and will not likely ever strike out of fear. They may be a bit "harder", but will not likely be soft and will take pressure more readily, without fear of them breaking down and will greet every challenge with a "can do" attitude. This is just me and what I look for, all else being equal as far as potential abilities, conformation and Pedigree.

You would be amazed at what you can see of these traits from pix as well, if you can read body language. I picked my current pup from what I could see from studying pix for 6 weeks. When the Stud owner, Snips, went to get their pup and pick up mine as well, I left the final decision to her as to which would best suit my needs(criteria known). It appears that I must have seen things correctly, as she picked the same pup I had when she could be around them and see how they acted, whereas I couldn't. I picked her up in GA, took her to a Show in NC for a week and then brought her home. She made herself right at home and you would think she was born here.

JMHO. Hope this helps you some in your considerations.

[hubweims]

sorry that your post got missed, but the insulting tone and sarcasm in your second post is really not needed. maybe your post got missed with other posts, and then maybe people didn't respond b/c of the vagueness associated with the first post. in order to get advice on picking a pup, it's best to ask and seek the opinion of the breeder. they spend everyday with the pups and can better place their pups to the suited homes. if they are not an experienced breeder, then maybe i would consider buying a different line. one that is proven and you know what you are getting. it's funny for me when a novice breeder/dog person will call their 8 wk old pups champions b/c a great grandparent had a title. in reality that doesn't mean squat. also, you didn't tell us any criteria for your personal use of the dog. is it a pet/companion first, hunter/gundog first, or are you interested in trials? If you are picking your gundog or trial dog on coat color, you are missing the boat. however, if you are looking for pet/companion that looks good in public and at petsmart then coat markings and color is important. elaborate on your requirements and uses for the dog, and i think you will be amazed at the support you receive.

[Ironhorse77]

Sweet....I knew I could get you all riled up enough to respond. Thanks for all the input. Its very helpful. I thought I was pretty thorough in my first post, but I guess not. So here it goes.........

The pups that I'm looking at are sired by Moose (WildRose Dixieland's Legacy) from Charlie Rose's kennel. So the lines are pretty good. I want the dog to be calm in the house, good with the small kids, and live to please! I also want him to be a machine in the field and tear through the brush without hesitation. I am an amateur hunter and don't run trials, therefore intensity doesn't need to be at the highest level, but I don't want a dud in the field either.

My two choices that I'm considering aren't the two extremes in the litter. One of them is the middle of the road dog and seems like he might have wuss potential while the other one is a little bolder and more willing to try new stuff, albiet it could bring trouble. I went over the other day and did exactly what you all suggested and took the two out on their own in the backyard and away from their littermates. The bolder one went off exploring and chewing on weeds while the other one didn't really move much and started shaking ( I think it was pretty cold too, so I can't totally base everything on that).

My concern is that if I get the bolder one, he could turn out to be a barking, jumping, chewing maniac....despite all levels of correction and attention ( I also need to keep my wife happy with the dog, so calmness in the house is a must). However, like AHGSP said, he could also be the one that would be the machine that I want in the field. It all comes down to how well he will respond to correction and how much he wants to please instead of being Mr. Independent. Hence my dilema. I told my buddy that I want the bolder one, but I could still change my mind if I wanted to. So any other suggestions, experiences, etc would be very helpful.

[ezzy333]

My concern is that if I get the bolder one, he could turn out to be a barking, jumping, chewing maniac....despite all levels of correction and attention

I don't think BOLD means barking jumping chewing maniac. That pup you get is going to be just like your kids except smarter. It will take a couple of months to house break instead of a couple of years like the kids. And it will be just as much of a misbehaving maniac as you let it just like your kids. In other words if it healthy it will not be this timid little wonderful house puppy but rather a rambuncious, nosey, little demon until you train it not to be, again just like your kids.

Any pup in the litter will probably be all of the things I have mentioned once it gets acclimated to your home and family. Thats when the fun begins and the rewards will showup in a year or two instead of 10 or 15 like your kids.

Ezzy

[hubweims]

all of this is strictly my opinion. i normally always go for the more aggressive/dominant/bolder pup. however, like previously stated, it really is luck of the draw with them being so young. you could pick the more independant one now, and some experience happen in the next few months that could set him back. so, with the pups so young there is no guarantees.

i personally like bolder pups. if they keep their boldness and you encourage it, i have found that it is easier to break a dog down rather than build one up....if they makes any sense. what i mean is that you can always keep a dogs range and drive in check, but it's harder than heck to build it when the dog doesn't show any desire to hunt. good obedience and e-collar conditioning with proper exposure and experience the dog will learn what you expect of him.

the problems that you are worried about (barking, jumping, chewing) can all be handled with proper obedience and socialization. as for harsh cover, this is more tied to experience and exposure. so, that can be handled with either pup, but again it may be easier with the bolder pups.

the great thing about gsp's, as well as weims, is that they have that "want to please you" gene. Both pups will have that built in as long as you socialize and make a strong bond with your pup. the difference comes in training techniques. softer dogs take a little more TLC and time. most trainers don't like these dogs b/c they have certain ways they like to do things. i'm not trying to offend anyone here, but there are trainers that stick to there routine. it might not be the best way for every dog, but it may work for most. case in point......i have two weims. both were the bolder pups out of seperate litters. my male is really coming around and has drive out the wazoo. he is easier to train as he accepts the pressure better, but he still hunts for himself b/c that's what he wants to do. i have extremely high hopes for him as he ages and gets more experience. my female weim is softer than my male and she takes a softer gentler hand, but is a more pleasurable hunting companion. i know that she will kill herself trying to please me. she hunts for me and does what i expect of her.

these dogs are smart, and if you lay the rules down from the beginning at home, i am sure that the bolder dog will be manageable. keeping either one of them "calm" the first two years is going to prove quite a chore. a good daily excersice regimen (not tossing ball in back yard) will do wonders for this though, and you, your wife, kids, and dog will be much happier. the biggest thing here is set some ground rules and stick to them. make sure the pup knows that there are things that he can and can't do. a lot of people don't believe in basic obedience with pointing dogs, but i do. you said you have a lab so you are probably a fan of obedience training. put your dog through puppy class and basic class if you wish. this will help tremendously with the everday family life as well. I only hunt my dogs 5-6 months out of the year, but i live with them 12!

sorry for the ramble........i would agree with the bolder choice though.

[Theresa]

I have had mostly pitbulls, small terriers, a lurcher and a Frenchie or two!

The pits are a piece of cake compared to the working bred lurcher, who is big as a moose and getting into trouble with slipping on my wood floors and - well, wanting to course the Frenchies (hence my desire to place him elsewhere. YUP - I got waaay more dog that I thought I was getting and am over my head!) Even tho my lurcher boy is alot of dog, he is still crate trained, potty trained etc. and doesn't tear up the sofa or bark his fool head off at a passing bus. It took work -daily work and still does, as he is only just coming up on a year. I do find that if my hubby doesn't require him to be obedient - he knows basic obedience - that he will try to walk all over him. So, what I am trying to say is, maniac in the field = maniac in the house if the BOTH of you aren't committed to training that pup to be a calm housedog. What has worked for me - and not sure if this is how a hunting dog should be started but this is how I start my housedogs - is once you have that pup home and comfortable for about a week or so, I use a tether or light line - some trainers refer to it as an 'umbilical cord' - to tie the dog to my waist. I find use of a Gentle Leader head collar to be ideal for this sort of training, as some pups if you just attach the tether to their buckle collars don't seem to figure out they are tethered to you, while the GL litterally leads the pup by the nose. If you do the GL/tether thing inside the house, and buckle collar outside the house, the pup will quickly get the idea - house manners inside, maniac manners outside. This may not a tool you will need, but if your wife isn't as dog savvy as you are.. or one of those soft personalities that has a hard time putting her alpha suit on, she may really find the GL a useful tool to control the pup, as its easy as pie to teach a pup to sit/down etc. with a GL and you generally don't require much strength to control the dog. If you ask your pup to do the basics - sit before each meal or before being let outside - if you (esp the wife) use simple obedience each and every day, you will keep your maniac in the field from being a maniac in the house! JMHO!

[rosiesdad]

GSP's are a different character than labs (in general). I have had them for 30yrs, but they have all been house/family dogs.
Maybe some lines of breeding are more hyper than others. Look at both parents and see their demeanor...
Your personality and patience level is what makes the type of pup (boldness/independence) important. You may do better reeling a bold one in, vs not being happy with a dog that could tend to hunt well, but closer.
Its hard to send em out farther..
The older I get the more I appreciate a more laid back/closer hunting GSP. I'm not running to keep up with a dog anymore, and it isnt the end of the world if my dog dont find more birds than yours.
I have also found hunting away from other dogs to be key to having your dog develop its own hunting/pointing/retreiving skills.