Gun Dog Forum

Spy Car

Yesterday I spilled some dry deer corn in the dog yard, forgetting about it, I almost had a dog fight when I let them out as they pushed one another to get the last kernel. Dry corn! My dogs must have missed the memo about evolving to only eat meat. I have seen coyotes eat corn, wheat, other grains...

Spy Car

Yesterday I spilled some dry deer corn in the dog yard, forgetting about it, I almost had a dog fight when I let them out as they pushed one another to get the last kernel. Dry corn! My dogs must have missed the memo about evolving to only eat meat. I have seen coyotes eat corn, wheat, other grains...

Spy Car

Spy Car

What would you say causes it? Obviously the fish, but why? I'd say it's because when they are eating the food they were shaped by nature to consume—rather than an extruded cereal-based meal that needs to be spayed with "meat flavor" to be remotely palatable—that dog's saliva starts flowing, and the...

Spy Car

Stick to the sardines

Bill

Spy Car

Most of the breed differences are conformation related which goes back to being developed for different ways of handling the art of hunting. Bill, I am disappointed that when you disagree with someone you accuse them of lying. There is nothing that I posted that is a lie. I even agreed with you tha...

Spy Car

What I have proven irrefutably is diet is not a limiting factor in my dog's success. Should you ever have a change of heart and want to try a raw diet with one of your dogs Neil, I'd be willing to mentor you though the process. You would see a difference in the condition of the dog. Bill That is mo...

Spy Car

Neil wrote:What I have proven irrefutably is diet is not a limiting factor in my dog's success.

Should you ever have a change of heart and want to try a raw diet with one of your dogs Neil, I'd be willing to mentor you though the process. You would see a difference in the condition of the dog.

Bill

Spy Car

Haven't we been waiting for evidence of your dog's superior performance as well? I wish I had access to a VO2Max testing center where I could get hard data. Dogs that have been tested in studies show that performance is always far superior when those dogs run on a high-protein high-fat diet. There ...

Spy Car

Gentlemen, as I have stated many times before I do not care what or how you feed your dogs. I also have said that feeding a raw diet is good except for the fact that an individual is not nor can he afford to become equipped to feed it efficiently. Let's just look at some of the points brought up by...

Spy Car

I am a native Californian, and combined those that visit here could not entice me to return. In fact, those that proudly live there is enough to question everything you say. Rather than ask us to experiment, saddle up. And any winning breed fed whatever is worthy of a place in my string. That is th...

Spy Car

I am a native Californian, and combined those that visit here could not entice me to return. In fact, those that proudly live there is enough to question everything you say. Rather than ask us to experiment, saddle up. And any winning breed fed whatever is worthy of a place in my string. That is th...

Spy Car

If you are looking for a certain winning strategy, look other than adjustment to food. Probably the wisest statement made in the whole topic. Athletic performance is a combination of genetics, conditioning, and nutrition. When searching for a winning strategy, you can't change the dog's genetics bu...

Spy Car

Found some frozen sardines but they're $1.80 lb. I'll get some and see how the dogs like it but You raw feeders must live in a less thriving economy than Utah :lol: Out here in the land of fruits and nuts, I'm angry when I don't get my chicken leg quarters for under $0.30/lb and sardines for under ...

Spy Car

I will see what I can come up with and try it on my 8 month old pup. The other dogs will freak out though because they all love raw. Maybe I'll add some sardines to their diet just as a snack;-) I did find a source for sardines at a good price, but I had to purchase a minimum of 25 cubic tons :lol:...

Spy Car

And yes, I've heard the whole "don't feed raw and kibble together" camp's argument. It is based upon the theory that kibble will slow the digestive process and make the dogs more susceptible to any food born illness in the raw. Anecdotally, I don't know a sled dog team that doesn't mix the two. Sci...

Spy Car

I just figured the percentages of calories from fat and protein from the sample meal.

It came out 51% calories from fat, 49% calories from protein.

Bill

Spy Car

Bill, I hear you! You've explained this before and I appreciate it, but.......I guess we do just keep going in circles :( What do you mean? Is there something I can try to make clear? Bill No, crystal clear :wink: I just can't do the raw thing with 4 dogs. Time and freezer space;-) BTW I just ran m...

Spy Car

SCT wrote:Bill, I hear you! You've explained this before and I appreciate it, but.......I guess we do just keep going in circles

What do you mean? Is there something I can try to make clear?

Bill

Spy Car

Depends on the dog and time of year. 2-4 cups should make it easy :wink: Here is a recipe: 1/2 cup PPP 30/20 2 ounces. Sardines, Raw 1 Chicken Drumstick, raw (~4 ounces) 1/2 teaspoon Coconut Oil 1/2 teaspoon Canola Oil Total Calories = 483 (1 cup PPP 30/20 is 475) Calories from: 51% Fat 35% Protein...

Spy Car

I feed my litters high calorie puppy food starting when weaning begins. If I keep a puppy out of a litter I feed the puppy food until 12 weeks old. Then I cut calories because I've noticed large leg bones start to outgrow muscle, and feet will start to turn out. I point this out to people when they...

Spy Car

SCT wrote:Bill, wouldn't feeding raw maximize growth rate?

Only if the puppy is fed excessive calories. Otherwise, no.

Bill

Spy Car

I'll give you that diet maters, but I don't buy into the logic that if some is good, more is better. Most papers consider that sled dogs are an anomaly in the animal kingdom. It has been shown in various studies that what applies to sled dogs certainly does not apply to greyhounds - it seems that 4...

Spy Car

Al, I'll take you up on that but I'll put you to task and see where it goes. Here's 3 types that I've fed this last year. PPP 30/20, Nutrisource performance 30/20, and PPP 26/16. All three are chicken based and corn on the two Purina brands but the Nutrisource may have been rice. I'd love to know w...

Spy Car

You have been trying to make an argument that modern kibble diets are bad for the dogs, then use a study proving their performance advantages as proof of your concept? Sled dogs don't eat what was used in that study when on the trail. Where is the evidence that if we feed our competitive pointing d...

Spy Car

Thanks Slistoe, I will read it when I get a chance. The second sentence, that starts with "Common sense...." is a good one Purina could use for their products eh?? :D I would like to see a study that works pointers on treadmills as a comparison, and i don't mean a slow treadmill. I mean one of thos...

Spy Car

Bill, thanks for explaining the jest of the study. I would like to save it if you can get the link to work! Steve OK, I went through the retriever site and found the original article http://www.theretrievernews.com/uploads/5/0/1/0/50103541/does_diet_affect_field_trial_performance.pdf This isn't a s...

Spy Car

Steve and Al Pastor,

Here is a link to a PDF of Coffman's article:

http://www.theretrievernews.com/uploads ... rmance.pdf

Sorry about the earlier broken link, I'll replace it in my previous post with this link.

Bill

Spy Car

While I agree that most of the feeds are the same basic stuff in different bags, scientific studies are hardly a thought exercises. They are the product of testing against a control group. There is nothing that is more real proof. So, you have a scientific study showing that if you feed your huntin...

Spy Car

If you are looking for dubious histories I invite you to check out the fantasies offered up as history with Vizslas. I'll decline thanks it would detract from my original post,and quite frankly I just don'y know what your point is ,other than quotes or links from the internet. Are you a breeder ? D...

Spy Car

shags wrote:No offense Bill, but a *setter* pup would have learned to whoa like that after maybe two meals

That's actually about how many it took for the Vizsla as a puppy. The rest is reinforcement.

It just shows how easy it is to condition desired behaviors.

Bill

Spy Car

Bill, I think you are right in that some (if not all) of those folks were having health problems with their dogs and was why they were on that board. I believe that a balanced raw diet may be ideal, but it just isn't something I can commit my time and energy to. If I saw a lack of endurance or reas...

Spy Car

The incidence of muscle injury when dogs are fed under 30% of calories is pretty compelling. Since the talk was given by a person on retainer to Purina, to an audience of industry representatives (including ones from Purina) over twenty years ago and has been largely confirmed since, they can't clai...

Spy Car

I always had doubts about the hereditary chain with retrievers in the UK was dubious dating back to Buccleuch , but sounds like you guys have a real problem with bloodlines . Perhaps that is one of the reasons there is more of ours over there and not one of yours (as far as I know) over here ? .......

Spy Car

Neil wrote:
AlPastor wrote: it was an easy task to add to their usual kibble.
My point. No one is leaving kibble behind and seriously hunting or trialing.

I travel with 8 - 12 dogs, often off the grid.

Feeding 8 to 12 dogs certainly complicates matters from a practicality stand point.

Bill

Spy Car

You're making assumptions. I have seen silver labs for 35 years, mainly in Ca. Everyone always assumed they were a color phase of chocolates. Same as there's yellows that are nearly white and yellows that are dark red. I have no idea where the dog's came from. I was a trainer and took what I was gi...

Spy Car

LET ME BE CLEAR, I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AGAINST IT. I HAVE WORKED WITH MANY PRO'S WHO TRAIN FIELD TRIAL RETRIEVERS AND IN THOSE 30 YEARS, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE EVERY HAD ANYONE SUGGEST 'TUG A WAR' AS A TRIED AND TRUE TRAINING TECHNIQUE. END OF MY DISCUSSION! Holy moly, calm down. Can you not co...

Spy Car

I don't think you grasped the true meaning behind what I was saying. Because those who weren't backyard breeders decided that the bulldog should go in one direction caused all the problems they have now. So in my opinion things are always changing sometimes for the good and sometimes for the bad. A...

Spy Car

Bill, What I am doing isn't perfect, not even optimal, but it works after a fashion. The weak link in my program is not nutrition, in fact it is pretty far down the list of limiting factors. Following general incompetence, laziness, time, money, health, dedication, facilities, access to wild birds,...

Spy Car

Bill, Your last sentence suggests you are making a giant leap, I don't know anyone winning with any type of performance dogs that "have left cereal based diet behind", do you? I think you would have to have a refrigerator truck follow you around. You are misleading others by suggesting the only opt...

Spy Car

Hi Bill, since we talked about it I joined a raw feeders group on FB and watched every post on there. I was surprised at how many weird ailments popped up. Some seemed to be unexplainable. That was strike number one. Strike two came with amount of work, time, expense, and freezer space it took for ...

Spy Car

If you read more carefully you would have seen I add 2 tablespoons of used canola oil. And I have said repeatedly I do not compete against the top dogs. Neil, I fully respect your experience and wins in Feild trials. Sincerely. On the matter of optimal nutrition for canine performance athletes the ...

Spy Car

If you read more carefully you would have seen I add 2 tablespoons of used canola oil. And I have said repeatedly I do not compete against the top dogs. Neil, I fully respect your experience and wins in Feild trials. Sincerely. On the matter of optimal nutrition for canine performance athletes the ...

Spy Car

ezzy333 wrote: Once again 10 of us are wrong and one of us is right.

Bill

Spy Car

AKC Stance on Silver Labradors Response of Jack Norton of the AKC on 1/24/00 giving AKC official position on the issue of Silver Labs. "The registry of the American Kennel Club is based on parentage and not the coat color of a member of any breed. In 1987 the AKC, in corporation with the Labrador R...

Spy Car

Thanks, this is a great article. But, it really is talking about the extreme side of running performance. "Sprinting" sled dogs covering 100 miles a day for 4-5 days is extreme. For pointing dogs on a week long trip averaging 35 miles a day would be considered pushing it. And, the statement about s...

Spy Car

I just read the Labradoe Club statement in silvers and they have NO proof they were ever crossed with any Weim It's purely connector.. I saw silver labs from chocolates 35 or more years ago and they weren't crossed with any Personally, I believe that is NOT a recognized lab color and no registratio...

Spy Car

Backyard Breeder Definition

An individual who causally breeds dogs without titles or clearances and without any clear regard for improving, and maintaining the breed standard, temperament or keeping it free of genetically linked defects.

http://dogtime.com/definition/backyard-breeder

Spy Car

Backyard Breeder Law and Definitions Backyard Breeder is a term used for breeders of dogs in a largely pejorative sense by the Animal Welfare community, ASPCA, larger established breeders and dog club. It is used to refer to one of the groups usually deemed not to be a Reputable Breeder. It implies...

Spy Car

A backyard breeder is someone who keeps a number of dogs and either breeds them deliberately or just lets them breed. Backyard breeders may have a few dogs or many, one breed or several. They usually have no understanding of or concern about the breed standard, genetics, socializing the dogs, and m...

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