Gun Dog Forum

Spy Car

See and listen to link! This is an interesting and highly informative interview with a vet who specializes in this very thing and mentions that generalist vets are frequently uninformed on this subject. We should ALL listen to it. https://puredogtalk.com/veterinary-voice-prostate-problems-preventio...

Spy Car

Castrating a dog without a very good cause can lead to increased risks of cancers and it generally undermines their health. Not optimal. There is one leading reason to castrate older intact dogs and that is if they develop a large prostate. Ask your vet to check for Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia, if ...

Spy Car

And here in lies the problem , zero to limited experience, which to most of us means a time of listening and learning from those that do and not the time to be the teacher and tell your students they are not very smart. I still have a problem we should allow the inmates to run the prison. But then,...

Spy Car

Optimal levels of fat, protein and carbohydrate is a far cry removed from zero carbs for all dogs in all circumstances. Who is arguing with you that there are optimum levels of nutrition balance for dogs? NO ONE. And when I said that I also said that further increasing the fat levels at the expense...

Spy Car

Hey, make up whatever offense you would like to, but saying that a carb free diet is better than anything else for increased performance in all dogs under all circumstances is just plain kooky. It is an unfounded, ludicrous extrapolation of the available data. (Well, it actually flies in the face o...

Spy Car

Still waiting for you to actually come up with some new knowledge for us here regarding your zero carbs assertion - it is a ludicrous and unfounded extrapolation from the base knowledge that has always existed. You have made the assertion and ever since have just talked around in circles like the k...

Spy Car

slistoe wrote: Yeah, you tried that one before as well. Not buying it.

I'm confused. Did you not just say that old hands know the "secret" that higher fat diets improve scenting abilities in gun dogs?

Bill

Spy Car

I will give you that since the companies have all folded to this "feel good" campaign about feeding and adjusted their formulations that it is difficult to get a 30/20 ration that will give top performance without some tweaking. When all the companies were making their rations with corn and poultry...

Spy Car

I did not prove your point - nothing has proven your point that zero carbs is better. I also proved to myself that increasing fat content further at the expense of carbs gave no material gain in performance in the dogs I was running and it had a negative effect on other aspects. I have fed a "raw" ...

Spy Car

What gundogs need varies by the type of muscle fibers predominant in the dog, the type and duration of exercise etc. What works optimally for one dog may have to be varied some for the next - a whole bunch of dogs and tremendous number of miles on the ground while trying to optimize performance of ...

Spy Car

:lol: Look who is talking about unsupported conclusions... My conclusion was that you would need to exceed either your 60% calories from fat or the studied 24% calories from protein if you want to achieve zero carbs. You have 16% to make up from somewhere. Which study did you think I was looking to...

Spy Car

If you are going to go for zero carbs you will need to overshoot the optimal fat - or the optimal protein. Greyhounds, however, ran more slowly when fed increased dietary protein (36 vs. 24% of energy) (Hill et al. 1998). Your conclusion isn't supported by the study since they didn't test a no-carb...

Spy Car

Beagles ran for 20 miles (140 min) when fed high fat (53–67% of energy) diets but became exhausted after only 15 miles (100 min) when fed a moderate fat (29% of energy) diet (Downey et al. 1980) A high fat/high protein diet containing no carbohydrate resulted in better performance and less evidence ...

Spy Car

slistoe wrote:
Spy Car wrote: As stated earlier, about 50-60% of calories from fat is considered optimal.

Bill
:roll: Except in racing Greyhounds.

No. By feeding 75% they overshot the optimal range in Toll by a good deal :roll:

Bill

Spy Car

No study, ever, with ANY BREED, doing any function of work, has ever shown an advantage in performance in their work or in their stamina when fed higher-carb vs lower carb rations. Instead, there is massive evidence across all breeds that feeding more fat relative to carbs boosts endurance and perfo...

Spy Car

Here is an abstract of a study published in the American Journal of Veterinary Research: https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.2000.61.1566 It says: Racing Greyhounds ran faster when fed a diet containing higher fat and protein and lower carbohydrate contents. The mean racing speed was ...

Spy Car

No, you ignore the obvious. And yes, you have provided absolutely nothing to back up the ridiculous claim that zero carbs is an ideal situation. 50-60% calories from fat works for conditioned sled dogs running in ultra-marathon races in extreme climate conditions - it is not ideal for every breed o...

Spy Car

So, from way back in Dec. Since then you have gone around in circles repeating nothing new to anyone, and absolutely nothing to back up your ludicrous claim. Mushers and Greyhound racers alike include carbs in their balanced diets - at different levels to account for the difference metabolic requir...

Spy Car

What you feed varies greatly depending on the environment you are in and the different activities you are trying to optimize. That's why we see the differences in nutrition that is required. A problem though is the difference in the results are so minor you often don't see them with the naked eye w...

Spy Car

I don't want my dog to become "de-tuned" at any point during the year. Bill So your dog runs hundreds of miles a week all year long? We stay pretty busy and I see no reason to de-tune him by feeding carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are not essential in a dog's diet and negatively affect teeth, coat, co...

Spy Car

Such mushers feed high-protein/high-fat kibbles that are to 30/20 formulas, what Pro Plan is to Old Roy. Then, in addition to feeding much less carbohydrate in the kibble they use by not using a moderate-protein/fat formula, a musher like the hypothetical here further reduces inferior plant-based i...

Spy Car

spy car, what % of fat do you feed and what kind? What is the total protein of your ration? I, like most, want to do what is best for their dogs, not argue. I have all age bred pointers and hunt in terribly rough country. It is not named Hells Canyon for nothing. My dogs run from thirty to forty mi...

Spy Car

One could feed the same feed to a draft horse and a throughbred and the draft horse will still never run five furlongs in 57 flat. There is such thing as apples and oranges. You cant make a poodle into an English pointer no matter what you feed it. Not a germane comparison. If one took the same dog...

Spy Car

My nephew is a musher in Alaska and competes in the Iditarod he told me that mushers feed a minimum of 50% high protein high fat kibble. Meat and fat from other things. He said they cant get by with out the kibble. They feed fish and other stuff they can get the cheapest. No musher he knows does no...

Spy Car

Here is what Purina has to say [emphasis added]: Endurance for dogs is based on how well their body can use fat as energy, thus not primarily relying on and/or depleting the limited sugar energy stored in muscles and liver as glycogen. Fat oxidation provides most of the dog’s energy at low rates of ...

Spy Car

You'd discount anything that runs counter to your preconceived antediluvian ideas. A lot of dogs can get away with marginal nutrition when they are young, just based on youth and breeding. Ill health and age changes things. I've got a 15-year-old FC right now that bounces around and beats up my you...

Spy Car

Bill. I tended to agree with you till I saw the results of the feed test we did with mice, rats, and dogs, as well as the same results we got with plants from a homogenous fertilizer compared to "Close enough" But when comparing cost, it was much closer. I'm not sure how dogs compare with plants be...

Spy Car

Bill, it has to do with a balanced nutrition that is based on something besides looks and personal opinion. Ezzy It is extremely easy to provide a dog balanced nutrition with a PMR style raw diet. The idea that every nugget of food (and every meal) needs to be exactly the same is a false one. The s...

Spy Car

I don't think it is a consensus either but it is hard to explain why the smartest vet in the world feeds raw while advocating early neutering. Might it have some basis in whether that individual agrees with you or not. The so-called "smartest vet in the world" advocates early neutering??? Don't thi...

Spy Car

In point of fact, it is NOT the consensus that neutering doesn't affect hunting performance. It does.

You are operating under a false premise.

Bill

Spy Car

No. Just took my dog to a well-known orthopedic surgeon for a post-TPLO evaluation. At 8 weeks after surgery, he is doing fine. Got an A+ on recovery so far. However,the orthopedic guy --after asking about diet -- mentioned that dogs fed "raw" recover much more slowly and have far more problems tha...

Spy Car

Cite proof of your statement about stamina? Anecdotal evidence NFS. There is massive evidence from multiple studies ranging from sled-dogs, to racing greyhounds, to hunting dogs, to police dogs, to sedentary dogs that show dramatic increases in stamina (and other positive working attributes) when d...

Spy Car

What you can't see, her white teeth, her great blood panel, stamina, lack of malodorous breath, and strong coat. Interesting how people can feed themselves and their children, yet, Ezzy and the pet food mills insist you can't manage to feed a dog. :D Likewise, ever wonder why Veterinarians are the ...

Spy Car

Maybe because vets know that the major dog food companies spend lots of money on nutrition research, and employ actual scientists to carry out that work, and prefer trusting them as opposed to some lady or dentist on the interwebs who thinks their yorkies are fluffy lil wolves :roll: Nah. Major dog...

Spy Car

If you believe it is irrational to understand that bad teeth undermine a dog's scenting ability--despite the fact that the truth of the matter has been well-established--I don't know what to say. Bill Tooth and gum disease undermine many more things than simply scenting ability. It is bad stuff. Wh...

Spy Car

Hey Ezzy, don't be too hard on him - he just helped to point out how irrational his thought process is. Grasp at any straw. No real truth to any of it. (Well, I will grant that fat is a calorie dense feed and dogs can tolerate much higher levels of fat than people can without adverse effect.) Let's...

Spy Car

Th4e article clearly is about periodontal disease and not just plack or stain on the teeth. I as well as Slistoe have explained quiteclearly that we have never had a dog suffer from that and I am sure many others have had the same experience. Searching for excuses is a normal thing to do when you h...

Spy Car

That, right there is an amazing claim. How would you prove it? I really thought you had a point. But that changed my mind...........................Cj How behind the times are you people? The loss of scenting ability due to poor dental hygiene has been proven multiple times in tests with bomb dogs ...

Spy Car

What would be the point of the picture? Having white teeth is a sign off.....????? Never having to pay a vet bill for my dogs teeth is significant to your point - I have never had a dog with an issue with it's teeth even at 17 years of age. If my dogs teeth are a bit yellow it isn't affecting them ...

Spy Car

Where is the proof of that in upland hunting dogs or retrievers? Have you had your dog in competition on the Canadian Prairies in front of a horse for an hour? Does he finish strong to the front leaving dust as he goes? If raw feeding would assure greater stamina the pros who are trying to win even...

Spy Car

Most kibble-fed dogs have teeth that look like heck vs the clean white teeth of raw fed dogs. Bill Another bit of goofiness - 37 years of owning dogs - as many as 15 at a time. I have never paid a vet bill for dogs teeth. I do know of one dog that had issues with tooth and gum disease - developed w...

Spy Car

Lastly, I am surprised that in your list of accolades you didn't throw in longevity. It matters very little to me what you want to feed your dog. I have nothing against feeding a "raw" diet should a person wish to research and formulate such properly - done properly it will not harm your dog. But y...

Spy Car

Thank you Bill. Now we know and I can throw away all of the text books I had to buy for college courses. I have often wondered where they got their ideas that were so far off base and how the dogs that were used for research gave us the wrong Info. Ezzy If you don't believe that the nutritional ana...

Spy Car

I think I have asked before, but am still waiting for a raw feeder to tell us what the guarantees are on the feed you feed your dog daily. Never have seen the answer. No one is arguing that raw feeding is bad, it is just the inability of the individual to weight or measure how much of the different...

Spy Car

Truth? Ha, ha.

Says the guy who believe kids would be better off raised on "People Chow."
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Bill

edited by Sharon

Spy Car

Bill Bill, read first, think second, maybe read again(in case you missed something) then report. I made no evaluation you might note, but just reported what the nutritionist and researchers have found and are reporting. Glad you brought up the People Chow, because it is well known if we did have th...

Spy Car

No. Just took my dog to a well-known orthopedic surgeon for a post-TPLO evaluation. At 8 weeks after surgery, he is doing fine. Got an A+ on recovery so far. However,the orthopedic guy --after asking about diet -- mentioned that dogs fed "raw" recover much more slowly and have far more problems tha...

Spy Car

There is, in fact, no essential need for carbohydrates in a canine diet. Zero. All carbs do is cut costs and cut stamina. Carbohydrate percentages are not included in labeling laws because this inclusion of non-essential starches and sugars is an embarrassment to the industry, and they don't want th...

Spy Car

Dogs do much better metabolizing fat as their primary energy source than they do with burning nutritionally unnecessary carbohydrates. Dogs have zero nutritional requirements to consume carbohydrates. They are in dog foods to lower costs (only). That lower cost comes at the price of reducing a dog's...

Spy Car

Tooling wrote: Is one not symptomatic of the other or, does your agenda blind you to that fact?

My agenda?

We've got Nazis out on torch-light parade. Any threads about that?

Or are there good guys on both sides?

Bill

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